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Sets of Sagemono

A place to discuss and share other forms of sagemono such as Inro, Pipe Cases etc
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DSW90049
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Sets of Sagemono

Postby DSW90049 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:08 pm

Here's a Sagemono which may be an original set. Pics include a very elaborate Dragon wrapped around Sword clasp and some etching on backside of the clasp. Purse is still filled with papers!
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"There is no shortcut to netsuke collecting; it takes time, study and patience. The market is flooded with utterly worthless rubbish. . . . "
Netsukes: Their Makers, Use and Meaning, H. Seymour Trower(1898)~~~~David

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AFNetsuke
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby AFNetsuke » Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:37 pm

David, the papers you found in your tabako-ire were probably put there to help retain its shape like the stuffing you might pull out of a new pair of shoes first time out of the box.
Alan

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chonchon
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby chonchon » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:00 pm

Love that set David, especially the wonderful Mae-kanagu dragon and sword.
Piers

Size is something.

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jbjtennyo
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby jbjtennyo » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:32 pm

For what it is worth, I do think David's is an original set - (I am not sure I understand the roosters though with a dragon? Maybe someone can enlighten me about that paring.) Why I think it is original - even down to the leather, is that I had the opportunity to handle a wonderful set that, at first glance looked like they had always been together, but with a closer look, the leather told a different story. The shape of the original pieces was forever written in the leather, and did not match its new partners. It is possible that all the ivory pieces were original (again the only that might not have been is the inside ivory piece with sea life). But look at the leather, the wear from the position of the original attachments, even holes tell the story. Then look back at the one that David posted, and the shape of the metal components seem to fit nicely cradled by the worn and branded leather.
I would be interested to hear what others think. I have not spent much time handling these sets and so really am just putting something out there for comments--I would think an original set would be a real treasure--afterall, we are talking about 100 or more years!
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Judy

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DSW90049
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby DSW90049 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:37 am

Thanks for the comments. I wonder myself and realized that, though I've owned it for some time, I'd never shown it to anybody before.
Piers, I love the Dragon/Sword clasp too. It is large, bold and colorful, and well, I confess to being a Dragon Lover.
Judy, I don't understand the etchings on the inside of the clasp either, but there they are. Ideas?
Alan, your comment has inspired me to take the papers out - they are very old and I've been afraid they'd fall apart. But, if just stuffing, time to see how old they are?

Do others think it is an original set too?
Judy makes good and thoughtful analytic comments on that point.
Any others want to share what may be original sets?
"There is no shortcut to netsuke collecting; it takes time, study and patience. The market is flooded with utterly worthless rubbish. . . . "
Netsukes: Their Makers, Use and Meaning, H. Seymour Trower(1898)~~~~David

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AFNetsuke
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby AFNetsuke » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:13 am

David, what is peaking out from under the flap of your pouch that looks like the edge of a coin with the letters "CANDARExx"?
Alan

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DSW90049
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby DSW90049 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:10 pm

It is the metal fitting (male) which mates with the hole on the inside plate of the clasp (female) to hold the clasp closed. I'll get a pic of both parts with it open, so we can see what is written on it. Also, will have a look at some of the papers inside to see what they really are, and will post pics if sufficiently of general interest.
"There is no shortcut to netsuke collecting; it takes time, study and patience. The market is flooded with utterly worthless rubbish. . . . "
Netsukes: Their Makers, Use and Meaning, H. Seymour Trower(1898)~~~~David

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ABland
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby ABland » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:21 pm

I'm not sure what the association between dragons and chickens may be unless they had some association with the zodiac year of the original owner in which case we may never know. The fittings look true to each other though and I like the chunkyness and wear of the attached netsuke.

Judy I really like your set though the style of carving on the inside panel does not strike me as being as good as the rest of the set. The composition feels a bit awkward in comparison the the clasp (which is inspired) and the ojime (a collection of shells?). Like you have suggested I also wonder if a previous owner has wanted to complete the set and found a panel which matched as closely as possible?

I am still unable to decide if my first purchase which I posted when i joined the forum some years ago is a set? The materials of Ojime and the clasp are similar but i don't know if there's and association between the two? The large Manju could be original but given the main pouches theatrical theme I wonder if there was originally a mask netsuke or netsuke of an actor in costume instead? I know it had a matching pipe at one point though the last owner lost it when digging with it as a child in the back garden! All the leather components match in material and stitching ect.

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The other contender i may have is a more recent purchase but it depends if there's a association between crabs, mushrooms and poems about plums which is on the inside of the lid but i don't have a stock photo of the poem. any guesses?
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chonchon
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby chonchon » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:11 am

The quality of these sets is superb.

David, what did it turn out to be? I am guessing a Chinese silver cash coin!

Here is mine. It came out of a Kura and I have made no attempt to clean it up. The strings are dyed with indigo, a popular dye/colour which also happens to be a preservative and pretty insect-proof. (Some of the indigo fabric preserved in the Shoso-in in Nara has remained pristine, even after more than 1,000 years!)

I have included this for the strings, the four-string knotting and the association of objects. Tinder-holder Netsuke, steel bag, flint bag, pipe holder; the bells may have been to warn off bears. The long strings seem to be for decoration, like outfits worn by Davy Crockett or Western scouts, etc.

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Piers

Size is something.

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AFNetsuke
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Re: Sets of Sagemono

Postby AFNetsuke » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:11 pm

ABland, yes, I think something other than the plain ivory manju makes sense. I'd like to see a good mask made of shakudo and gold accents...now, about 150 years ago I'd be visiting a famous metal worker with a commission request. Today, scouting the auctions and dealers for that perfect piece.
Piers, knotting of ropes and cords was an art to itself almost as so many items incorporate fancy ties. In this case a simple knot most of us have never tied was used to accomplish some separation of the four components. There was a time when familiarity with rope/cord and knotting was a necessity in many cultures, even more so among seafaring ones. Interesting bit of info you give on indigo.
Alan


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