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Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

A forum for discussions on INS-sponsor auctions from future and past.
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souldeep
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby souldeep » Sat May 27, 2017 10:07 am

borat wrote:I agree that provenance is important .... I especially take note of a piece when it has passed through many historically important collections eg lot 53. Provenance = Guest collection, Isobel Sharpe, M.T Hindson collection
An important collector once told me, if there are multiple important provenances with a single piece, make sure you can identify & understand what each of these knowledgeable people saw in it specifically.

I buy because of what I see in something. Not because it was important to someone else. I don't want to end up having a collection that is just someone else's, or important because of someone before me. I'm collecting for me. It's personal. A reflection of who I am and my tastes within this art form.

That being said, it's always interesting to get others opinions. Many aspects of art are subjective. Quality is objective, it's only our subjective limitations in understanding to identify quality that causes difference of opinions and debate.
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.

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souldeep
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby souldeep » Sat May 27, 2017 10:08 am

borat wrote:My purchase from Katchen 2 (not a Julius piece :( )

It's a bloody good thing, quality excudes through it. Why the tears??? Who cares who did, or did not, own it? The quality speaks for itself.
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.

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chonchon
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby chonchon » Sat May 27, 2017 10:12 am

Give it to me; wipe away your tears. :P
Piers

Size is something.

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tanukisan
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby tanukisan » Sat May 27, 2017 10:24 am

borat wrote:'An important collector once told me, if there are multiple important provenances with a single piece, make sure you can identify & understand what each of these knowledgeable people saw in it specifically.''

This is a big ask for most/all of us to get into the mindset of famous past collectors and what attracted them to specific netsuke given the limited published information about these collectors, many of earliest of whom were fortunate to buy netsuke in bulk in the late 19th and very early 20th Century period.

John 


borat
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby borat » Sat May 27, 2017 10:43 am

I think the point the collector was trying to make to me was to identify the inherent features which separate this model from the more mundane versions - the message was meant to be of educational value. Though there is a direct relationship between popularity & price!

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LUBlub
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby LUBlub » Sat May 27, 2017 12:12 pm

I want to say that I absolutely agree with Martyn in his considerations.

I also want to say that when borat mention the point of provenance of important names and important collections, I associate it only with the human history of that netsuke, not on quality and therefore for me is a very secondary element ... because even here opinions are subjective and many factors undermine the choice we make, absolutely individual and probably not shared by so many other collectors.
One likes Masanao sleeping mouse, others ignore it and prefer a rat of Okatomo, and so on independently
Of who was the owner.
I do not think the possession of a netsuke along the time in the hands of important names and collections is a measure of value, as I said was only a "human" component, only this, very secondary for my decisions.
The famous "Monalisa" of netsuke In fact, - Ama and Octopus – was discovered in Vienna in one small shop
At banana price without any provenience and subsequently became a ikona.
The bigger collections have had and have masterpieces but also pieces of little artistic value but with a great appreciation from the owner.
Not so long ago the sale of Maria Callas was sold, this great lyric woman was not familiar with netsuke, so it was a "mix" and the prices has reflected the good the medium and low quality average level ..
Who has experience and knows the matter is not distracted by provenience and status but recognize quality and price ratio, as Martyn has well quoted.
I bought an Ox and calf signed Tomotada – (and extensively discussed and posted in the old forum, thread Tomotada - ) in Brazil, a country with absolutely no tradition in Asian art culture, which the owner, anonymous widow of a CEO of a famous corporation, assured it belonged to Rockefeller's (Nelson Rockefeller (1908-1979) till when he was on official visit in 1952 to Sao Paulo, and give the netsuke as gift togheter witl one Shibayama set inro to the Lebanese friend family who housed him.
Later one this Lebanese family sold to my widow vendor friend of them, as well my dear friend...
Rockefeller came ten times to Brazil, some on an official mission, some on his own initiative., Having deep roots as political and great economic interests in Brazil…
Was really this the story of the Ox?, I don’t care, I care the piece.
One final example: I own two contemporary netsukes absolutely twins published in the British Museum book “Netsuke 100 miniature masterpieces from Japan” – see pages 104 and 167 – the only difference is
my piece have 21 masks and the piece in BM 15 - the other similar Netsuke is in the Takamado Coll
illustrated in Tokyo National Museum, and this one probably have the “royal pedigree” for people who care status, for me irrelevant.
In my opinion no one of this 3 mentioned netsukes have more value because of their hypothetical mentioned pedigree, they have value only for their beauty…
In our NetsukeWorld nothing is a fixed formula, everything is pure individual taste and sentiment, or
intuition...
Finally, auctions and good dealers are very important for buyers, but in my experience if you have knowledge and experience the best formula is to be an expert "Hunter" all around to achieve incredible
discovers...one of the biggest Hunters and model was our unforgettable Antonio Pereda...
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Excellence in netsuke art don't need signature or pedigree, or age, only quality, aesthetics, beauty.

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KPR
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby KPR » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:51 pm

This ghost rising from the scroll was the lot no. 20 in the Katchen auction.

It was not sold and I got it from Max in Cologne at a very fair price. I also know now why.

I love ghosts, but in hand it was a disgusting extremely sticky piece. Unpleasant and many were surprised that I bought it.
Since I did not trust my revision, I gave it Clive in Cologne to remove the sticky unpleasant fat.
When the Netsuke returned this week I was joyfully surprised.

A fat-free piece, many details now visible, the different colors of the Kurogaki wood now visible. The colors in my picture correspond to reality.

Unfortunately, I did not take photos of the state at that time and can only compare it with the Bonhams picture.
Remember, Bonham's picture was made by a professional photographer and I am a beginner with a cheap camera.

If desired, I will publish several images in a Ghost thread.
Many thanks to Clive.
2017-001.jpg
Klaus

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jbjtennyo
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby jbjtennyo » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:00 pm

Klaus, that is just amazing! Doesn't even look like the same piece. Especially the ghost's face comes alive now...Great decision to allow Clive to clean it up--what it revealed is beautiful! Congrats for sharp insight!
Judy

GiantSquid
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby GiantSquid » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:56 pm

I liked that at the time Klaus... I like it even more now.
Clive also cleaned a netsuke for me, a group of mushrooms.
Here's the result. It's an honest netsuke and much more pleasing now you can see the wood grain. It's not Katchen, but I did get it whilst in Cologne and hence why Clive ended up with it. Now back with me and I'm very pleased. It really was caked in allsorts prior to Clive's intervention. Only photos showing what it looks like now for the moment as I need to extract before photos from a video.
Rich
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LUBlub
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Re: Bonhams Katchen Collection Part II

Postby LUBlub » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:53 pm

souldeep wrote:
borat wrote:I agree that provenance is important .... I especially take note of a piece when it has passed through many historically important collections eg lot 53. Provenance = Guest collection, Isobel Sharpe, M.T Hindson collection
An important collector once told me, if there are multiple important provenances with a single piece, make sure you can identify & understand what each of these knowledgeable people saw in it specifically.


I buy because of what I see in something. Not because it was important to someone else. I don't want to end up having a collection that is just someone else's, or important because of someone before me. I'm collecting for me. It's personal. A reflection of who I am and my tastes within this art form.

That being said, it's always interesting to get others opinions. Many aspects of art are subjective. Quality is objective, it's only our subjective limitations in understanding to identify quality that causes difference of opinions and debate.


Each one have his own opinion Martyn, but your philosophy was my own along the years...then absolutely I share your views....status is a empty concept in netsuke, is not art, quality is the essential point...but I understand people who collect also to have a good investment on base of the pedigrees....so many extraordinaire pieces were and are anonymous...
Excellence in netsuke art don't need signature or pedigree, or age, only quality, aesthetics, beauty.


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