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can anyone help identify this netsuke

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chonchon
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Location: Japan

Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby chonchon » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:52 am

Compare with this Masatsugu ‘Kachi-kachi Yama’ Netsuke

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9AE4EDDF-F7C8-444E-A74C-3712B7FE3DD4.jpeg


22433DE0-5B86-4ACE-BB3D-6F2360E4A8F9.jpeg
Piers

Size is something.

Floridanetsuke
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Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby Floridanetsuke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:24 pm

jbjtennyo wrote:Hi Jill,
This puppy is sweet, but I think that your monkey avatar is older and a finer quality carving. Also the fact that your monkey family has hair detail and stain separates it artistically from the smooth white surface of the puppy. I don't believe they came from the same hand, but this is only my opinion. The puppy is cute, but I think from a more contemporary period than yours, and you know I love your Monkey!

I don't know if I agree. Certainly having not seen the monkey netsuke I cannot comment on its quality as to carving. However just as car experts say a black car is the most difficult to repair due to the mirror finish of the black paint showing every ripple and flaw. So too I believe a smooth polished netsuke will highlight carving imperfections as opposed to carved hair and stain which can camouflage imperfections. I would love to hear your thoughts.
Last edited by Floridanetsuke on Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AFNetsuke
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Location: Central California coast, USA

Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby AFNetsuke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:50 pm

Floridanetsuke, very dark netsuke can hardly be compared to black car finishes. Are white car imperfections easier to spot? I've always said i should buy a white car because they hide dings but maybe I'm wrong...
Alan

Floridanetsuke
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Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby Floridanetsuke » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:55 pm

AFNetsuke wrote:Floridanetsuke, very dark netsuke can hardly be compared to black car finishes. Are white car imperfections easier to spot? I've always said i should buy a white car because they hide dings but maybe I'm wrong...

I agree with you as to cars. However my point was it seems to me a smooth polished netsuke would show flaws more than a rough stained one.
Last edited by Floridanetsuke on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbjtennyo
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Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby jbjtennyo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:43 am

Floridanetsuke,
You are correct in that stain and surface texture such as hair can attempt to hide some imperfections, not only in the ivory , but in the carving as well. But a trained eye can see the difference between an attempt to mask a problem and excellent skills. There are masters that create a wonderful hair technique and then there are sloppy scratches in the surface that are not artistically handled at all. The hair detail alone or lack of it is not the only thing that makes a carving good.
There are several carvers who carved under Masatsugu. The style of carving on yours though, seems to me to be an attempt to copy Kaigyokusai Masatsugu, as he is who carved puppies playing with shoes and shells, and other animals as well. The work that I have looked at by the other Masatsugus do not look like your carving. To me, yours has a more contemporary look to it, like puppies carved by Kangyoku, although his also are a finer quality. It would have been better for whoever carved yours to have left it unsigned or to sign his own name, as then we could enjoy this sweet little puppy for what he is, and not worry about the signature.
Below are images of a Kaigyokusai Masatsugu puppy signed Masatsugu, and also information regarding his style. There are also two images of puppies by Kangyoku, who is a modern contemporary carver whose work is also sought after. Your puppy, to me, has a more contemporary look. Last is my ivory horse that I really love, that has a similar smooth surface like yours, with a famous but false signature. It to me has the same surface look as your puppy, and the ivory looks --well--newer. But regarding ivory, we should be asking Clive who sees all and tells all.. He will even tell me if I'm wrong, and I really appreciate that he is willing to do that. How else do we learn?
Please do remember that this is just my opinion, as is that I really like your little puppy. he's a cutie...
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Judy

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Tama
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Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby Tama » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:48 am

Thank you Judy and Piers. I have all 3 volumes of Laz and I count the strokes and still have difficulty with some signatures, some I am spot on with. I find that known netsuke by a carver with a signature does not always look like the signature in Laz, perhaps it is my mistake that if it looks pretty close then that must be it. As was the case with my Masatsugu and this puppy in question.

I had posted my Ikkosai monkey troupe to start a discussion as to which Ikkosai it was from. I did not save our prior conversations on the netsuke that Judy and I had, so I was looking for more information for my records. Maybe I jumped the gun, after 10 hours and 40 views and no responses, I removed the post. I felt if 40 members viewed the post, then at least one would offer an opinion, I don't feel the burden of keeping a thread going should be solely left to the moderators and Chonchon, we as members all have a part to play keeping this site going. (Don't think I don't appreciate that the moderators and Piers do a hell of a job keeping a flow on this site, because I do.)

Floridanetsuke
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:48 pm

Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby Floridanetsuke » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:37 am

jbjtennyo wrote:Floridanetsuke,
You are correct in that stain and surface texture such as hair can attempt to hide some imperfections, not only in the ivory , but in the carving as well. But a trained eye can see the difference between an attempt to mask a problem and excellent skills. There are masters that create a wonderful hair technique and then there are sloppy scratches in the surface that are not artistically handled at all. The hair detail alone or lack of it is not the only thing that makes a carving good.
There are several carvers who carved under Masatsugu. The style of carving on yours though, seems to me to be an attempt to copy Kaigyokusai Masatsugu, as he is who carved puppies playing with shoes and shells, and other animals as well. The work that I have looked at by the other Masatsugus do not look like your carving. To me, yours has a more contemporary look to it, like puppies carved by Kangyoku, although his also are a finer quality. It would have been better for whoever carved yours to have left it unsigned or to sign his own name, as then we could enjoy this sweet little puppy for what he is, and not worry about the signature.
Below are images of a Kaigyokusai Masatsugu puppy signed Masatsugu, and also information regarding his style. There are also two images of puppies by Kangyoku, who is a modern contemporary carver whose work is also sought after. Your puppy, to me, has a more contemporary look. Last is my ivory horse that I really love, that has a similar smooth surface like yours, with a famous but false signature. It to me has the same surface look as your puppy, and the ivory looks --well--newer. But regarding ivory, we should be asking Clive who sees all and tells all.. He will even tell me if I'm wrong, and I really appreciate that he is willing to do that. How else do we learn?
Please do remember that this is just my opinion, as is that I really like your little puppy. he's a cutie...

Thank you very much for your help. I appreciate it.

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chonchon
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Location: Japan

Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby chonchon » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:30 pm

Jill, thanks for the kind words. The Masa 正 character is pretty square in standard form without too much individual variation, but look at each stroke of the tsugu 次 and note how each starts and finishes, if it is ticked, curved, bent in, or bent out etc. This character tends to vary widely from writer to writer.
Piers

Size is something.

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Tama
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Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Re: can anyone help identify this netsuke

Postby Tama » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:25 pm

Thank you Piers. Side by side they do look nothing alike after taking in account your information. I appreciate the tutelage.
Last edited by Tama on Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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