netsuke and sagemono lounge : Disclaimer - Please click anywhere on this bar to expand/contract the content.

Ikkosai monkey group question

Discussions of carvers, workshops and attributions. A forum to also find help on, or discuss, signatures.
User avatar
jbjtennyo
Posts: 3729
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:38 pm
Location: USA

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby jbjtennyo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:21 pm

Jill, It is great that Jan posted that page from Neil Davey, as it was where I was going too!. Tthe three highlighted with Green rectangles are all the correct kanji, and it is said that all three (or possibly just two,) are father and son. Ueda Reikichi gives the best info, saying the master was Saito Itaro. He lived in Edo Tokyo, and was friend to carver Hojitsu. He lived 1820-1873. The same signature was used by his son, Saito Yataro 1833-1893, and had the pseudo name of Kojitsu. Then Toun Ikkosai worked in a period of Tempo from 1830-1843, and it is thought that he and Saito Ikkosai are one and the same. There is a difference in how the Sai is written on some netsuke and that is where the confusion as to whether it is one or two sons, has sprung from.
Last edited by jbjtennyo on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Judy

User avatar
jbjtennyo
Posts: 3729
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:38 pm
Location: USA

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby jbjtennyo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:27 pm

Jill, the confusion with yours was that the Sai used is the long form, and not the one that we generally see-- which is why there is confusion as to whether there were two sons or only one, who possibly used different forms of Sai at different times during his carving life. No netsuke with the full signature Ikkosai Toun was ever registered according to -all according to Meinertzhagen.
Judy

User avatar
jbjtennyo
Posts: 3729
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:38 pm
Location: USA

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby jbjtennyo » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:44 pm

Here are some images that I have found of Ikkosai netsuke. We can all digest some of these comparisons a little and possibly find more. Perhaps coming up with some ideas as to who did what, we can all compare notes and see if we agree...Not dyed in wool, but a start to understanding perhaps.
Attachments
IMG_4562.jpg
IMG_4563.jpg
IMG_4564.jpg
IMG_4566.jpg
Judy

User avatar
KPR
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:08 pm
Location: Bayern

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby KPR » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:32 am

The references of Davey, Lazarnick have been mentioned here, which I value very high.
But you have to consider the following:

The Index of known Artists by Davey was published in 1974. It is based mainly on the research of Mark Hindson, so it is significantly older.
Moreover, in almost all signatures not clear from which pieces come the signatures.

Lazarnick photographed and published everything that came before the camera lens. Luckily, in his later double volume, the netsuke are additionally depicted.
The quality of the pieces shown is very different. This is a great help and a must to evaluate the signature.

If you want to know everything about the Netsuke with the signature "Ikkosai", check Fuld's index. There are over 450 pieces with his signature listed with an indication of where to find them.
Last edited by KPR on Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Klaus

onimh
Posts: 541
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:32 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby onimh » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:44 pm

This is an excellent, informative thread.
I'm glad I don't collect Ikkosais specifically.

User avatar
souldeep
Posts: 3678
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:38 pm
Location: London

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby souldeep » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:59 pm

Oishii wrote:This is the list from Davey with the artists signing Ikkosai. The ones marked in green are the ones that have the same kanji as the pieces discussed.

Also this Ikkosai (Saito) sometimes signed 一光, although no example here in the MCI;

051215879.jpg

Then to confuse matters further Kojitsu Saito sometimes signed Ikkosai with the same kanji as well :?

Ueda Reikichi records - Born in 1833. Was a son of Ikkosai (B 336). Succeeded Ikkosai II 一光齋二代. Entered the school of Hojitsu (B 243) in his middle years while living at Asakusa, Tokyo. Carved in ivory. Died on July 27, 1893. Buried at the Shinjo-ji.
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.

User avatar
souldeep
Posts: 3678
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:38 pm
Location: London

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby souldeep » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:27 pm

Tama wrote:I also want to know if by the same hand why do the signatures look so different

It's a good question Jill. I suspect I will get flamed for the following comment; we should apply artistic license to signatures.

  • Some netsuke were undoubtedly produced in a workshop scenario. Signatures may have been applied by different students almost like brand stamps.
  • Signatures may have been applied at purchase time by the request of a purchaser walking into a shop and saying "I'll take that one please, I would like it signed". This might sound far fetched - but I suspect the Silk Seal trade worked very much on this basis. You picked your netsuke from a selection on display, then provided your seal design to an artist to add, thus shortening the process. This theory may explain why it's not uncommon to find seal "blanks" around the market place.
  • There are some noted examples of guys adding signatures to works during the export period to cater towards western tastes/requirements.
  • An artist may have drunk too much sake the night before.
  • Is your signature always exactly the same?
Above are just some ideas - I'm sure we can all think of more. However, by applying artistic license, we can find ourselves falling into a paradox.

Why might I get flamed? It's not uncommon to see experts decide the authentication of the piece, against an artist, on the strength of signature alone. Interestingly, in Japan, this identification technique is almost religious.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is no place for signatures. They certainly help with grouping, and when all the stars align, magic happens :) However what seems to me more reliable, is the study of signature in the work. I think then, as you stated in your other request, seeing more examples shared here is the best exercise to help you group it to a hand.

Purely my opinion - but your monkey group has a Tokyo feel about it. So I would look into more examples of Ikkosai's that are listed to have worked there. Also some interesting comparisons to be made with Klaus's monkey and octopus example. Again that looks Tokyo to me. Looking past the end treatment in stain/dye; Compare images close up and see what similarities/differences you can draw.
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.

User avatar
KPR
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:08 pm
Location: Bayern

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby KPR » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:19 pm

A Hakutaku family with the signature Ikkosai, seen in the larger picture. It is not a later added signature, I know two more Hakutaku Netsuke with identical position and same signature; a single and a couple.
I would recommend to all registered INS members to read the closed thread about the Hakutaku. Vlad explains there the possibility that this mythical creature may possibly be a horned shishi.
Attachments
1383-002.jpg
Klaus

User avatar
souldeep
Posts: 3678
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:38 pm
Location: London

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby souldeep » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:10 pm

On your point Klaus - in your group we see shishi style feet, rather than the hoof of a kirin.
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.

User avatar
KPR
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:08 pm
Location: Bayern

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby KPR » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:26 pm

souldeep wrote:On your point Klaus - in your group we see shishi style feet, rather than the hoof of a kirin.

Martyn, the essential difference between Kirin and Hakutaku, A Hakutaku has lion feet.
Klaus


Return to “Artists & Signatures”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest