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Ikkosai monkey group question

Discussions of carvers, workshops and attributions. A forum to also find help on, or discuss, signatures.
onimh
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:32 pm
Location: Boston

Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby onimh » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am

* MOD EDIT - This was kindly posted by Matthew in response to a new topic asking about Ikkosai and signatures, by Tama (Jill) in a post that she deleted - END MOD EDIT *

This first sub-topic is for Tama.
Ikkosai.
One is mine and one is a screen shot from a friends pdf.
It took me a while to get the picture from pdf to here. I move pretty slowly anyway but put it away once the topic disappeared-sorry.
Attachments
Ikkosai Hare & Minogame.jpg
Ikkosai Hare & Minogame 8.jpg
Screen Shot 2017-11-02 at 7.47.18 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-11-02 at 7.47.33 AM.png
Last edited by onimh on Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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ModTeam
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Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby ModTeam » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:29 pm

Jill, would you be able to re-post your monkey group of Ikkosai with your questions ?
This way we may learn more about the carvers/studio that have used the Ikkosai signature.

PS. Thank you for taking the initiative here, Matthew. (The second example piece seems to be a tourist piece at first sight ?)
We believe the 19th C. Ikkosai signed in a slightly more powerful way.
Last edited by Oishii on Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The ModTeam

onimh
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:32 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby onimh » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:49 pm

It does look suspicious in the picture but it has a much better look and feel "live". There is no provenance attached to it. It also has a damaged eye on this side reducing its quality appearance.

One separate, additional, question is: What is the number or percentage of times that a quality carving comes up with no corresponding artist listed in Lazarnick? How comprehensive is Lazarnick?; at least in your experience? [My shishi post begs this question as the original readings are nowhere to be found. viewtopic.php?f=494804&t=8077132].

This question is a bit different to Tama's: How different can a signature be and still be considered the same artist?
Last edited by onimh on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Tama
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Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby Tama » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:49 pm

My apologies Matt. Patience is a virtue that I unfortunately do not possess. When I deleted the topic all my research went with it. I will reformulate and repost. The question you ask is in fact a burning question in my mind.

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KPR
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Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby KPR » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:53 pm

onimh wrote:.........This question is a bit different to Tama's: How different can a signature be and still be considered the same artist?

Many Shunga Netsuke, even from well-known artists, are unsigned. One of the few exceptions is Ikkosai.
In this piece, he has "hidden" his signature as a pattern in the coat.
4.jpg
Klaus

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KPR
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Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby KPR » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:42 pm

This Shunga can be recognized only at second glance and through the use of the imagination. Here Ikkosai uses the usual signature.
48-003.jpg

4-001.jpg
Klaus

onimh
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Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby onimh » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:37 pm

".........This question is a bit different to Tama's: How different can a signature be and still be considered the same artist?"

So, looking at Klaus' three subjects and my first minogame/hare the answer is that they can be quite different, as different as a person's script signature might be if one were to sign their full name vs initials vs something in between, and still be considered the same artist.

Or Klaus, are you saying these were three different artists named Ikkosai? My skill at recognizing which artist carved which through attribution is limited to non-existent.

The shunga of the man "helping" the woman (perhaps hollywood actors in a Japanese role), and the three monkey side of Daikoku's hammer and Hotei's sack seem like odd men out to me.

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Tama
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Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby Tama » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:43 pm

Originally I asked for examples of Ikkosai that collectors attributed to a specific Ikkosai. I guess like here are the netsuke and here are the signatures and this is from the Ikkosai from... which ever dates he was carving. This way I can see from whom mine was carved. Laz has very few examples, I was hoping for more.

I also want to know if by the same hand why do the signatures look so different?
Last edited by Tama on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Oishii
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Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby Oishii » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:46 pm

onimh wrote:Or Klaus, are you saying these were three different artists named Ikkosai? My skill at recognizing which artist carved which through attribution is limited to non-existent.

This is the list from Davey with the artists signing Ikkosai. The ones marked in green are the ones that have the same kanji as the pieces discussed.
Screen Shot 2017-11-02 at 22.38.18.png
Jan

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Tama
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Re: Ikkosai monkey group question

Postby Tama » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:59 pm

Jan, which are which for those of us who have difficulty with kanji even though owning the same books?


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