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Signature reading

Discussions of carvers, workshops and attributions. A forum to also find help on, or discuss, signatures.
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Vlad
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Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Signature reading

Postby Vlad » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:54 pm

I am not sure what it actually is for any more, Judy.

Netsuke, as most valuable collectibles, may be either arts or antique crafts. Art is a unique, newly developed either in form, or in composition creation aimed at effecting our emotional sphere, when crafts are high level and quality hand-made replications of the existing forms aimed to satisfy day-to-day practical needs including interior and other forms of decoration. Souvenirs therefore are neither.

Let's just not fool ourselves. One still needs to have sufficient time to study and sufficient funds to collect arts and antiques. Otherwise they would've not been that valued and that desired.

Antique crafts traditionally are much cheaper than arts of the same and of even a later period, unless they are very special, unique and symbolic. But still...

What we shouldn't be doing/supporting, is changing our quality acceptance levels to serve our craving/drive for accumulating things of a perceived value. There is enough net groups doing just that - collecting and praising their tchotchke/chachkies-netsuke out there.
The INS mission is just the opposite:" ... study and appreciation of netsuke and its related art forms (inro, ojime, sagemono)".

I feel like this forum is loosing it, and the mass almost complete departure of the most experienced and knowledgeable/researching collectors over the past couple of years along with the latest removal of Clive's tutorials is the best attestation to that.

And that is SAD!
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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AFNetsuke
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Location: Central California coast, USA

Re: Signature reading

Postby AFNetsuke » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:21 pm

The goals of the Netsuke & Sagemono Lounge are the same as the old Forum. But the added goal is to be more welcoming and avoid off-putting comments or personal attacks. We created a Members only area where the posters know more about each other and can be more direct or abrasive if they feel the need as long as it involves no ad hominem attacks. The Public side should take a gentler approach while educating beginners especially, in hopes they will develop into serious collectors.
Alan

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Vlad
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Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: Signature reading

Postby Vlad » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:30 pm

AFNetsuke wrote: ... educating beginners especially, in hopes they will develop into serious collectors.


And that was exactly my only goal here all along, Alan. I did not even think addressing/mentioning, leave alone criticizing, any of the members individually here. Nor expected it from others...
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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chonchon
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:16 am
Location: Japan

Re: Signature reading

Postby chonchon » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:48 am

Alan, there was a fashion for Karakuri Netsuke within Japan but many were also made over the years for the foreign tourist market. They were produced in large numbers, and many are very crude. Not my area of speciality and not really my cup of tea. I have seen and been offered some really intriguing ones too and I believe there are collectors both in Japan and in the west who like them and value them. This one to my eye is better than the typical run-of-the mill karakuri that are usually presented here, but of course it is not high art.
The question by our guest was, could someone please read the signature.
Vlad's point is valid, and I often feel his exasperation, but sometimes I find a little reservoir inside me of patience. Many signatures which are quickly dismissed as meaningless squiggles here can actually be read and I know that in some cases I am not really doing a service by reading them. This particular one looked like Matsukaze, a name I have never seen before on Netsuke, but to be sure I showed it to my wife. She put on her glasses and without a moment's hesitation said Matsukaze. I double-checked all my books on the off-chance but found no such name.
Piers

Size is something.

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chonchon
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Location: Japan

Re: Signature reading

Postby chonchon » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:14 am

As to the two okimono statues the other day to which I think you were alluding, Vlad, they were either bone or antler, with ivory bases. Personally speaking neither were to my taste, so I refrained from comment as I sensed the owner liked them. I saw no gain for anyone in reading the signatures, but they were 'readable'.
Piers

Size is something.

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AFNetsuke
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Location: Central California coast, USA

Re: Signature reading

Postby AFNetsuke » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:38 am

Thank you, Piers. What are your thoughts on the age of Orest's carving? You are immersed in Japanese culture with an opportunity to see items more in context associated with items of more certain dating. Your opinions here always carry a lot of weight for most of us.
Alan

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chonchon
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Location: Japan

Re: Signature reading

Postby chonchon » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:50 am

Alan, you give me too much credit. The thickness of the body shows an understanding that Noh characters (even female) were traditionally played by men. The suggestive mask on the floor however, although providing context, and balance to the figure, as a precious artefact itself would never really have come into contact with someone's feet, even while practising back in the changing rooms. My feeling is that this okimono-type 'Netsuke' was made for the mass tourist market sometime in an oval around WWI and WWII.

Vlad, if you think one of us should leave this place, then as someone unable to distinguish x from y as you say, I should. Your expertise is necessary here.

It would be nice to think that we could all put our relative strengths together and work as a team, however.
Piers

Size is something.

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AFNetsuke
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Location: Central California coast, USA

Re: Signature reading

Postby AFNetsuke » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:09 am

Thanks, Piers. A clear answer with much insight. No need to talk about anyone leaving.
Alan

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Tama
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Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:22 am
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Re: Signature reading

Postby Tama » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:41 am

Piers, you are not going anywhere! You bring so much to the forum with your expertise. You are invaluable to us.
Last edited by ModTeam on Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Inflammatory remarks have been removed.

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souldeep
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Location: London

Re: Signature reading

Postby souldeep » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:49 am

Recently you may have read ( viewtopic.php?f=259139&t=8079238&p=68420#p68420 ). The Modteam is trying to become less involved in the day to day disagreements between the members. It's your right to speak frankly, as long as it's kept civil. The Modteam only aims to step in if rules are breached. Never the less this is difficult to uphold when the Modteam notices a storm brewing.

Please understand it's not for individual members to tell others to leave, or to ostracise members. This should be left to the Modteam to uphold, under the published guidelines.

As previously mentioned - this is your forum, and your community. Everyone has differing levels of knowledge, differing mannerisms, differing agendas but most importantly we do agree on a key point - our love for Netsuke and Sagemono. Please remember that education should not be elitist. We all started at the bottom, and educate our way up.

It's always going to be the case that a healthy diverse community has individuals that don't get along. This point is important, especially in the area of educational debate. Can we please dig deep and find some tolerance to accept differences in the aim of our common goal. A forum community that focuses on the enjoyment and study of Netsuke at any level of quality and knowledge.

PS When I find I'm having a bad day, or something I read in a post makes me react emotionally - I refrain from posting. Coming back to thread 24 hours later helps throw perspective on something I may have originally perceived to be a bigger issue than it really it was. My point; I try (my best) to post from the position of reason :idea: - not from a position of reaction :evil:
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.


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