Again on "silk seals" netsuke

[giuseppepiva]

Hello everybody.

I am now handling a classic itoin netsuke together with another grotesque piece that I have always labeled as "Fukurokuju" (I have seen similar ones always with the same label).
What I am noticing is that they seem to be carved by the same workshop, if not by the same hand: the facial expression, nose, wide apertures on the mouth's side and the general carved lines are very similar, as well as aji and patina. Not to mention the single central himotoshi on the back.
So: could also this "Fukurokuju" be just another "monster-man" instead? They almost all have a tall head, don't they?
If so, could this peculiar shape (unusual for a stag antler netsuke) be a silk too? If someone has a "tube" netsuke to show, pleas do it!

Giuseppe

[chonchon]

Guiseppe, we had a thread, perhaps on the old site, discussing (silk) itoin seals. Usually the human face with a neck ruff when turned upside down becomes a cat face. You are maybe right about coming from the same workshop.

One of yours fits nicely into that category, but the Jurojin/Fukuroku is quite unusual.

I do have one which I bought in Kyoto some years ago. Most itoin collected in Japan tend to be metal and command high prices; one dealer told me of the original reason for the hole, but perhaps it was easier to make the jump to Netsuke for those made of bone, antler, ivory etc.(?)

Ueda Reikichi thinks they were one of the origins of Netsuke, hanging from people's obi. 糸印は根付の起源として有力で、舶載された糸印を帯に提げるうちに日本独自の根付が発達したとものとする。初期のころの根付には糸印そっくりのものがある。

[giuseppepiva]

Thank you, Piers.
A notable difference is that on the long one the hole on the back seems to be origina, while on the itoin it looks to be added later.
It might mean the first one was actually born as a netsuke, while the seal has been adapted later on, maybe.
I was aware of the upside-down thing, but I was now wondering about the connection with silk seals.
Giuseppe