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ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

What subject or legend is depicted in your netsuke or sagemono?
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chonchon
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby chonchon » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:21 pm

Except that it is NTKK Nihon Tosogu Kenkyu Kai, a different organization and paperwork, and run by the breakaway Mr Saruta, even though the paperwork looks similar at first glance.
Piers

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chonchon
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby chonchon » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:23 pm

In fact, his paperwork is not illustrated within that branch chart you posted.
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Vlad
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby Vlad » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:43 pm

Got it! Thanks.

INS could've implemented a similar grading system. Just a thought. .. :roll:
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby chonchon » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:07 pm

Yes, but I am sure this has been mentioned on and off over the years.
1. Send in your Netsuke and pay a handling fee of say $50.
A) Receive paperwork from the international board rejecting it as NLO.
B) Receive paperwork attesting to either:
1. Worthy of Preservation as an artistic/historical artifact.
2. Especially Worthy of Preservation...
Or any of the others such as Valuable Art Object, Especially Valuable Art Object, World-Treasure, Highest World Treasure, etc. and a quote for corresponding extra charges for exponentially valuable fancy paperwork.
Piers

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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby Vlad » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:05 pm

I particularly like the voluntary submission approach (it doesn't mean that a piece is any worse if it doesn't have a certificate) and the criteria used (try to change sward terms to netsuke terms and apply):

Criteria for HOZON Distinction (unofficial translation from the NBTHK)
1. If the sword is ZAIMEI (a signed tang or nakago), the signature must be correct (not fake). If the sword is MUMEI (unsigned tang), the blade’s period of creation, province and school should be recognizable to pass judgement.
2. Should the sword pass Criteria 1, the blade should still be aesthetically worthy of appreciation despite the fact it may have a few scratches or look tired.
3. If the sword was made by very famous swordsmith before Nanbokucho period (before 1333), the JI (surface) and its NAKAGO (tang) will be carefully examined.
4. If the body’s surface (Jihada) has been repaired, it should not detract from its original beauty.
5. For modern swords produced in the Meiji Period and Taisho Period), they must be in good condition and must be ZAIMEI (signed tang) and Ubu Nakago (original, unaltered tang).
6. If the sword is recognized as GIMEI (fake signature) or made to look like MUMEI, the blade will not pass.
7. If there is a chip in the blade, it will not pass.

TOKUBETSU HOZON is the second of four levels of honorable distinction. For a sword to receive TOKUBETSU HOZON, the sword would have had to clear the above seven HOZON criteria to such a fantastic degree to realize such importance. When swords achieve such standing, their value increases substantially.

And so on... 8-)

I can think of a few panels in the US and in Europe, which may be up to the task. :geek:
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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chonchon
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby chonchon » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:10 pm

Excellent. Many thanks. Of course there are particular difficulties with swords & fittings, and likewise particular but different problems with Netsuke. Sending ivory across borders, and where in time/space such a body of experts would exist come to mind. Are these difficulties insurmountable?

Although I have hung around with sword aficionados for several years, I only have three blades which are registered and also happen to be papered Hozon. Two koto and one shinshinto. A couple of my spears also have paperwork.

Many people say concerning swords that it is a very sad world where we in the West have come to value appraisal papers so highly. (When we should be able to see and appreciate first.)
Piers

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DSW90049
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby DSW90049 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:43 pm

Piers' question raises the biggest obstacle to creating a certification system for netsuke and sagemono - the ivory legal issues of today - and asks whether these problems would now make implementation insurmountable.

While I am the eternal optimist, it may well now be insurmountable. In the 80's, and maybe before, Bernie Hurtig had a certification system for netsuke that he sold - a collector friend has one, accompanying a sheep or goat, as I recall - anybody who could post one here for comparison would enrich this discussion. Hurtig's contained his famous guarantee, that he would buy back any legitimately questioned piece, which ultimately, so the story goes, proved to be his undoing.

However, if there is ever to be a legal market for antique ivory, legitimacy questions having been resolved to the satisfaction of enforcement authorities, a certification system for issuing a Forever Passport, to accompany the antique piece, upon payment of fees (some of which can be used for conservation efforts), so that the process of authorization need be completed only once - creating a certified market, the obvious solution - would seem necessary.

A project for our next generation?!?
"There is no shortcut to netsuke collecting; it takes time, study and patience. The market is flooded with utterly worthless rubbish. . . . "
Netsukes: Their Makers, Use and Meaning, H. Seymour Trower(1898)~~~~David

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Vlad
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby Vlad » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:13 pm

I am not sure I understand your point, David. I do know about the ivory trade ban, but was under the impression that ivory can be freely moved within the country by its owners for any other reasons, is it not so?
Having at least two boards - one in the US and one in the EU may already be quite instrumental, and nothing should prevent form opening such in Japan and the UK, if the need presents. The only hurtle for other countries/regions may be absence of sufficient number of recognized authorities in this field, but annual traveling sessions should be also not completely out of question in my opinion...

Finding obstacles has proven to be much easier than looking for solutions, but doesn't really support progress in any knowledge field. :geek:
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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DSW90049
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby DSW90049 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:51 pm

"Possession with intent to sell" is the outlawed act in US states like New York (yours, Vlad); California (mine).
Putting aside Federal law, the question will be how state authorities decide to enforce their law. If you carry in your domestic interstate US travels a box of netsuke with attached price tags, or a printed summary which includes prices, what prevents the overly-zealous enforcement officer from contending that these evidence that you are intending to sell. At what point does the legal burden of proof shift to become your burden to prove that you did not intend to sell? What if the enforcement official obtains a search warrant to come into your home and examine your whole collection? Once the burden shifts, can you prove what year your piece entered the US? - through which port? If your collection contains 100 netsuke, does the volume alone suggest intent to sell? 200? 500?

These are not easily answerable legal questions presently.
My point, Vlad, is that we should never make the mistake of undestimating the complexity of what the law prohibits and how that would work in real life. Flat 'black or white' statements, or attempts to infer logically what the law provides, are roads to trouble. As I've repeatedly said - if you plan on traveling with antique ivory netsuke, get a lawyer's opinion (yes, it will cost money, but far less money than having to defend against a criminal indictment - imagine how large the Chait family legal fees are).

Mistakes, especially by people with expertise in this field (which a judge could count against you - reasoning that you should be held to a higher standard) can be costly, if not devastating.
"There is no shortcut to netsuke collecting; it takes time, study and patience. The market is flooded with utterly worthless rubbish. . . . "
Netsukes: Their Makers, Use and Meaning, H. Seymour Trower(1898)~~~~David

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Vlad
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Re: ONI & Hiiragi-Iwashi

Postby Vlad » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:12 pm

DSW90049 wrote: If you carry in your domestic interstate US travels a box of netsuke with attached price tags, or a printed summary which includes prices,...


But why would you do that, David?! :o
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)


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