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Shunga discussion - different grades

What subject or legend is depicted in your netsuke or sagemono?
lohrberg
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Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby lohrberg » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:06 pm

MOD EDIT - Klaus' and Reinhard's interesting points on Shunga in the Fish topic deserve a new discussion thread - END MOD EDIT
KPR wrote:agree, it´s a playful shunga.

Hello Dear Friend,
your (as usual) short comment of only six words, arises a fundamental question about the grades of shunga, which is worth to discuss with other members in the Forum. Are there different grades? You come up with "playful shunga". What is it? Well, you gave an answer already. It is, what we see in Masateru's netsuke of an octopus in a trap, who traps (?) a monkey, so both are trapped, a double trap.
070.jpg
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The next grade might be called "just a hint of shunga", then may be "soft shunga". What comes next?

Lovers, or better adorers of Japan know, that shunga was forbidden in Japan for centuries. The "hard core shunga" of the ukiyo-e was forbidden and doing, publishing and "enjoying" it, was a case for the criminal court. The first official exhibition of real hard core shunga, to my knowledge, was shown LAST YEAR in Tokyo, where I attended. It was crowded with people, mostly of 60 years plus, and 95 % female.

There is much more coming up with shunga!

Reinhard

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NetsukeManiac
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby NetsukeManiac » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:12 am

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Last edited by NetsukeManiac on Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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AFNetsuke
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby AFNetsuke » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:35 am

Dave, I have to wonder whether the Hahn piece had the horn (a schwam?) broken off (you can see an area where it should have been) versus it was removed purposefully to make the object being held look more like a dildo.
Alan

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NetsukeManiac
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby NetsukeManiac » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:47 am

xxx
Last edited by NetsukeManiac on Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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KPR
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby KPR » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:51 am

Instead of formulating new terms, I would suggest a number scale of 1 to 10 (or less). Comparable to the Mohs classification for the hardness of materials.
1 for Talc and 10 for Diamond. For example:
Dave's Shunga is 2
Teddy's modified piece is 4
Klaus

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NetsukeManiac
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby NetsukeManiac » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:55 am

xxx
Last edited by NetsukeManiac on Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KPR
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby KPR » Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:08 am

NetsukeManiac wrote:The 'KPR Shunga Hardness Scale'! :D

Dave

That's SHS 10 :shock:
Klaus

lohrberg
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby lohrberg » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:28 pm

Shunga or Not Shunga?

I would like to discuss this netsuke. Klaus wants to introduce a grading system. I fully agree. But there are netsuke, who might be more complicated, because we are not sure, if they even could get the grade 'one' (1). They might be minus 1.

We do not have this question on the highest scale number. 10 is 10. It should be a drastic grade of shunga, the rough sort or what is called in porn "hard core".

Now to the netsuke shown here. I bought it in the last century. I knew a lot about netsuke at the time, but less, than today. When I saw it in the dealer's stock, I said: Oh, this is a really good shunga netsuke!

He looked at me astonished and answered: No, this is not shunga! Why do you think it is shunga. I can definetely asure you, this is not shunga. You can believe me, I do my business for a long time. If you are interested in shunga, I can show you shunga netsuke, of course.
My answer was on the diplomatic side of the street, saying: No, I am not interested in shunga, but I like this netsuke, even if it not shunga.

Time has gone since then. I never changed my mind. For me it was shunga, when I bought it. And today looking at it, I feel it is shunga.

Conclusion:
Classifying netsuke if shunga or not. There is an area, where no prove can be given. It is a matter of feeling. But feeling is like foggy weather. I feel, it is cold, no, for me its warm. Very difficult. How about this netsuke then?

I would really like to get your opinion. As I said, for me it is shunga. And how can we tax it in Klaus' grading system? If it is shunga, then I tend to put it on grade 3. May be it is minus, minus (no shunga),

Reinhard
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Oishii
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby Oishii » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:40 pm

thank you for this intriguing question, Reinhard ...
By the way, your netsuke is lovely !

Some tentative thoughts ...
We might see in this netsuke a man's sensual dreams and fantasies, shown indirectly through the octopus' tentacles ...
The octopus and a girl in rapture being a celebrated shunga subject, finding its culmination in the notorious Hokusai print and in the "Ama and the Squid" netsuke masterpiece.
At first my thinking went into the direction of it being a 'mitate' shunga ?
but when looking again, I wasn't so convinced of this.
A somewhat more blunt way of looking at : the tentacle being the man's imagination of his own male organ ?

Klaus, what is your score on the SHS - scale ? :)
Jan

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AFNetsuke
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Re: Shunga discussion - different grades

Postby AFNetsuke » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:48 pm

Shunga, mitate? I don't know but this man is certainly happy with his big tentacle! He's either a chef (no evidence of that however) or this is grade 4 shunga.
Alan


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