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AMBER NETSUKE

Discussions, identification and analysis of Stones and Gems used in Netsuke
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chonchon
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:16 am
Location: Japan

Postby chonchon » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:15 pm

Very good follow-up pics. Please thank Dreme.

The seal spells out Dai-O, or Great King, I think. (Da-wang in Chinese)
Piers

Size is something.

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jbjtennyo
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Location: USA

Postby jbjtennyo » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:40 am

Thank you so much chonchon ~ What would I do without you! Dreme has enjoyed reading this thread-I sent her the prompt, so she has had all your messages first hand today. This is such a great help.
Hope you are having another wonderful day in the UK. You haven't told me of any new purchase yet. I am anxious to see what you take home for your collection. You don't have room for another Knight's Armour . It's much easier to pack a netsuke or a book! cheers chonchon. G'nite. judy
Judy

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jbjtennyo
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Postby jbjtennyo » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:35 pm

Just an update, after Tengu's post on how to test for true amber, I searched the web and found a few sites out there with about 10 different tests, and I sent that along to my sister to try. There was a specific recipe for mixing the salt water test that Tengu told us about. It seems it is a combination of 1 part salt to two parts water---that's a lot of salt!-she was going to try this test. There was a polish and sniff test, a taste test, a needle test and also a acetone or alcohol test (evidently if you put acetone or alcohol on pine resin or plastic, it turns sticky after a while where as it won't harm true amber. There is an immature amber (tree resin) that is called copal, and it seems that it also gets sticky with acetone test. Time and particular strata that the amber lay in for MILLIONS of years help those terpenes break down and escape from the resin, forming amber. Immature amber or copal is a substance in which all the volatile terpenes have not yet left the resin. It's an interesting site. I have attached the url for your convenience if you are interested. Taken a little aback by the possibility that this might not be amber, as it was purchased from a reputable antique dealer (passed away now) and was sold with a certificate of authenticity. Anyway, Dreme is doing the tests, and I hope to hear from her soon. I told her if she wanted I would take it to the convention so that those present could have a look and see what they think. I will e-mail Sachi as you suggested. Just didn't get around to it today. The url for amber authentication is below.


http://www.ambergallery.com/Is_it_real_amber_/is_it_real_amber_.html

Judy

OldKappa
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Location: Europe

Postby OldKappa » Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:22 am

Offshoots of Judy's URL http://www.ambericawest.com/pressed.html A long and interesting description on reconstituted amber

Another interesting test page http://www.ambergallery.lt/english/muziejus-tikras_ar_ne.htm


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chonchon
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:16 am
Location: Japan

Postby chonchon » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:31 pm


""jbarnewoltj":6dyvg9q0":3elqnjze wrote:Thank you so much chonchon ~ What would I do without you! Dreme has enjoyed reading this thread-I sent her the prompt, so she has had all your messages first hand today. This is such a great help.
Hope you are having another wonderful day in the UK. You haven't told me of any new purchase yet. I am anxious to see what you take home for your collection. You don't have room for another Knight's Armour . It's much easier to pack a netsuke or a book! cheers chonchon. G'nite. judy
[/quote:6dyvg9q0]
Not specifically looking to buy anything, Judy, but if I see something that I particularly like then I will be in trouble. Just wandering around looking and learning is what I really enjoy, but it changes everything if I spot something calling me. (A bit like meeting someone attractive who threatens to penetrate your defensive armor/armour and lifestyle. Why does the heart have to be tested every so often?)

Ivory of course will be out, unless it is very special and can be kept here in the UK.

Books, yes, but whether to buy in the UK or Japan? I expect I will buy a book tomorrow. There's a rather good bookstall which often has Netsuke books. :D
Piers

Size is something.

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jbjtennyo
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Postby jbjtennyo » Sat May 02, 2009 7:46 pm

Just a little update. I just got a nice note from Sachi regarding her hippo tooth dog that is similar to this amber one. She said that they were definitely carved by the same hand, the only thing being different, the material and the seal. (which she points out are both rare material for netsuke) She said she would send an image of her seal soon. Interesting thing, she called our dogs Koma-Inu, and said they must have been carved for some special reason.
I googled Koma-Inu, thinking some Indian background would come up, but not---it is very much in Japanese history if that identification is correct. Following is what I found in the Handbook of Japanese mythology by Michael Ashkenazi
Koma -Inu - Korean dogs. They protect most shrine and many temple entrances from the entrance of evil. One male and one female sit on either side of the entrance. They originate from similar lion figures in China. and probably have even earlier antecedents in India. In their protective function they serve for Shinto shrines a similar function to that of the Ni-o Guardians at the entrance to Buddhist temples. The Chinese originals were fanciful renditions of Indian traditions of an animal that did not exist in China. The Japanese copies of these with even less familiarity with the zoological original, were even more fanciful and subsequently labeled dogs. Because the idea was transmitted from china via Korea, they became Korean dogs. In most cases the pair representing a male (mouth open and he emits the primal first sound, yo and the female (mouth closed, she emits the final sound, in---also represent chines ideas of the complementarity and opposition between yang and yin universal principles. The female is often accompanied by her cubs.
These two guardians, with their semi comical pop-eyed expressions, are often confused with Kao-shishi, the lion of the lion dance and a favorite image of later (Edo-period) art. The koma inu, like the shishi, are reputed to be fierce in protecting their young with absolute devotion, and are thus appropriate guardians for shrines.
I made a mental note after reading this that chonchon's interpretation of my seal in Dai-O, meaning Great King...:idea:..hmmmm, interesting.

Judy

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chonchon
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Location: Japan

Postby chonchon » Sun May 03, 2009 12:11 am

If you have time there is some interesting background information into Koma-inu (Shishi) here:
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2554&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=570
which complements your information above quite well. The discussion starts with photos of a couple of little brass dogs/lions ? that some clever person found, and the question as to what they might be. After a page of lull, the feedback starts with John Stuart near the bottom, and Nobody's link.

I have to say that your seal has now passed the long-term test with me. I still like it when I look at it today. It does have some outside influence in it though, Polynesian? Canadian totem pole?

Piers

Size is something.

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jbjtennyo
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Postby jbjtennyo » Sun May 31, 2009 2:44 pm

Hi guys! It has been a long few weeks as I made my way north for the summer. After an exhibit in Springfield, Il, I went to my sister's house for a week, spending the evenings and nights with her, and the days with my daughter who lives near by. While I was with Dreme, she gave me her amber netsuke to bring home with me, as I am taking it with me to the INS convention. I have only been home a couple days now, but followed the recipe for the salt water test, as Dreme had not done it using the recipe yet. I let the water sit for two days in a cup, and then , this morning, decided to try it. Guess what! IT FLOATS! I am sending images so that you can see for yourself. Originally I had the salt water in a cup--first image. But then decided I should shoot it from the side in something clear so that you would be able to see it in the water. Seeing is believing~~
Sachi was so kind to send her hippo tooth dog to my sister's house, and it was waiting for me when I arrived there. So we got to compare, and it was really fun to have them together. I am in the process of buying Sachi's piece, and will enjoy showing them during the convention.
Hope all of you are having a good day. I am going to church now. It is a lovely day on the island, still chilly because spring is not totally here yet! But sunny and quiet in that island kind of way.
Warmest regards,
judy

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Judy

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Vlad
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Postby Vlad » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:44 pm

Hi Judy,

Does this look familiar?
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"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

valonline13
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 8:52 am
Location: Russia

Postby valonline13 » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:10 pm

Vlad, I think you missed some posts in that thread (starting from #5)
Sachi is the owner of Midori gallery and I guess according to Judy's recent post this netsuke is in her sister's house right now :)
Val


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