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Help with info on Minryosai

Discussions, identification and analysis of the different types of vegetable and fruit used in Netsuke
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jbjtennyo
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Postby jbjtennyo » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:10 am

OH how Neat! now that is just the kind of thing that I love! I can't wait to hear what you find out. I took a closer look, but can't see where that Inscription would be from your images. Perhaps you will let us see an image of it after you find out what it says! Good luck. How much fun.. judy
Judy

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chonchon
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Postby chonchon » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:02 am

Just seen the pics. Very nice. Thanks for posting them.

One very small correction. The carver may well have carved his Mei elsewhere as "Minryosai", but here he has signed simply "Minryo", plus "Tou" (=knife of).

Ito lists a Minryo, but the only information given in the column is that he generally carved in wood.
Piers

Size is something.

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jbjtennyo
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Postby jbjtennyo » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:49 am

Morning chonchon,
A little explanation. In Lazarnick, the similar piece is signed exactly the same way -caption says "Signed Minryo." Another pictured mei only is signed Minryo with a "to"--But all this information is under the netsuke-shi name of Minryosai. There is no explanation as to the discrepancy, but that is how it is listed, with no other information at all. Strange, huh?

Judy

tmmorg
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Postby tmmorg » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:59 am

Well spotted Chonchon and equally well explained Judy! It certainly does seem unusual that here he is signing carved by or 'knife of' Minryo and yet with the same signature, minus the to/tou he is listed as Minryosai. There is also a picture of a very similar walnut netsuke and a google search for Minryosai brings up some other walnut pieces in a Sotheby's sale.

I don't know enough about Japanese go to understand this variation. Doe it have a date for this Minryo, Chonchon?

Judy, the inscription is just above the himotoshi, in one pic I think the corner of the relief 'panel'? is visible (second picture just above the go). I will certainly post pics and info when I hear more.

Thanks to you all for your interest and wonderful comments,
Tom.


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chonchon
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Postby chonchon » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:19 pm

Tom, he is on a list of carvers that spans the gap from the earliest years of Netsuke carving right up to WWII. This may be carvers who were born before 1870. (?) There is no other information with which to date him.

The following list in the same book is of what the writer calls 'modern' carvers and seems to be carvers born post 1916 (WWI).

Following his classification, and I have no reason to either believe or doubt his scholarship, the indication is that because Minryo is in the first list, your carver is pre-WWI, at the very latest.

He is not listed in Ueda Reikichi.
Piers

Size is something.

tmmorg
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Postby tmmorg » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:15 pm

Chonchon that really is fascinating stuff- is there a signature there for comparison?

My knowledge of Japanese is non existent but Vlad mentioned that sai sometimes means student of?

Would the character mean that in this instance or would it have a different meaning?

As for date my own thoughts were that it was more likely edo as it is a very practical shape and size for a netsuke and it seems that more of these 'natural' netsuke originated in this period as opposed to meiji, but I'm just thinking out loud really.

Anyway, thanks for the additional info, it seems the plot thickens. Unless they are the same artist listed under two variations of the same name?


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chonchon
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Postby chonchon » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:37 pm


tmmorg. Just had a root around for the meaning of -sai, and it has a long and noble history, fascinating in itself, but in the usage under discussion, it indicates that the preceding name is a pen-name (e.g. for a writer) or an artist name (e.g. for a painter/calligrapher).
Piers

Size is something.

tmmorg
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Postby tmmorg » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:48 pm

Thank you Chonchon for the extra clarification. I take it to mean that sai was used to indicate that the artist is not using their 'real' or 'given' name.

Am i right in presuming that while an artist would refer to himself as Minryosai, others would merely call him Minryo?

I was also wishing to ask for your help on a different matter. I followed with great interest the post relating to Kudan's 'Rantei' netsuke. If I remember correctly you have some friends with expert knowledge of swords and metal workers. I have a small, signed, bronze, frog okimono. It is signed Gyoku-Meizan but there are no listings for such an artist. If the materials forum is an appropriate place I would like to post pictures, but as this is not a netsuke I am unsure if it is relevant.

Thanks for your help so far and I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this matter.

Regards,
Tom.



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