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Marine Ivory?

Discussions, identification and analysis of the different types of Marine Ivory
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Clive
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Location: UK

Postby Clive » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:58 am

carlomagno wrote:si los chanchos volaran.......you make my day Clive THANKYOU!!!! and MIlton what a beautiful work of art in a pipe case is a piece to handle for hours, full of aji (long time without using that word) but the stag antler is so obvious because the porous top that do not understand what would make anyone is walrus. Clive, is it posible to find that porous material in a walrus tooth?


There is I suppose the vaguest similarity between the structure of walrus

Image

and antler

Image

but that's about it. Occasionally one might find a few small cavities in the secondary dentine of walrus but its never the open lattice-like structure one finds in antler. I'd really expect any knowledgeable dealer to be able to distinguish between the two.
Attachments
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User avatar
LUBlub
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Location: Europe

Postby LUBlub » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:15 am

Milton...tks for your generous contribution....and beautiful piece!

Clive as usual you give to us your knowledge and absolute experience...Tks...I believe that only few dealers are in condition to recognize and differentiate the different types of "marine ivory family"...or the many ivory teeth's...My question is: if not you, WHO?...have you some student?, some follower?...
Excellence in netsuke art don't need signature or pedigree, or age, only quality, aesthetics, beauty.

Tengu
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Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:23 am

Postby Tengu » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:15 am

Clive, why it can not be bone?

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Clive
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Postby Clive » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:11 pm

Ahh OK Klaus.. that is an interesting question. First though the simple answer.. it is bone.

Yes.. Antler is bone.. a special type of bone as opposed to an ivory, horn, wood, coral or any of the other broad material categories. Compared to other normal mammal bone however.. antler grows much faster. They are also created in a different way and have slightly different mineral content.. all to better suit their primary function, designed for sustaining high impact loading and bending moment without fracture.

These things give antler certain characteristics that differ from normal bones. "Antlers have a similar microstructure as mammalian long bones, composed primarily of type-I collagen fibrils and carbonated apatite crystals, arranged in osteons in the compact bone and a lamellar structure in the cancellous bone... The cross-sectional microstructures in compact bone from antler and bovine femur are shown in Fig. 1(a) and (b), respectively. Osteons (Os), vascular channels (Va), Volkmann’s canals (Vo), and lacunae spaces (L) can be observed in both antler and bovine femur. However, there are several distinguishable differences between the two. Antler consists mainly of primary osteons, which contain newly formed concentric lamellae surrounding vascular channels. "

(Optical micrographs of compact bone from (a) elk antler and (b) bovine femur (Os, osteons; Va, vascular channels; Vo, Volkmann canals; L, lacuna; I: interstitial bone)

;)

My apologies for getting into such technical detail but I thought Klaus and some others will appreciate a proper scientific foundation for considering the difference between antler and normal mammal bones.

(more later) 8-)

Attachments
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mss
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Location: Florida, South Carolina, USA

Postby mss » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:27 pm

Clive, thank you for your expertise and explanation.


Tengu
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:23 am

Postby Tengu » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:56 pm


Clive, many thanks.
The differentiation only by the internal structure is actually more difficult than expected.
It is easier if the outer structure or the natural shape can be seen.

Piers once mentioned that because of Buddhism rebirth it is not usual or even forbidden to carve bone. Allows are only the regrowing parts like teeth, antler and ivory tusks (!?!? :D).



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Clive
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Location: UK

Postby Clive » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:19 pm

Tengu wrote:
Clive, many thanks.
The differentiation only by the internal structure is actually more difficult than expected.
It is easier if the outer structure or the natural shape can be seen.


This is true Klaus, but the internal structure is almost always revealed in any carving.. an appreciation of which need not be that complicated to apply in a practical sense when the natural shape of the material is ambiguous

In Milton's pipecase there is not only the very obvious end cross sections but this area..

Image

Since this close-up however is not of great clarity, I thought, when I have more time, I would take some of my own close ups of these sort of "pores" or pits to show how they relate to the detailed micro structure info already provided, hence my "More later" comment.

Attachments
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LUBlub
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Postby LUBlub » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:13 pm

Appreciate Clive....
Excellence in netsuke art don't need signature or pedigree, or age, only quality, aesthetics, beauty.

carlomagno
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Location: Chile

Postby carlomagno » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:25 pm

Again a class from the master, Thank you Clive
Nec spe nec metu

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mss
Posts: 291
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Location: Florida, South Carolina, USA

Postby mss » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:46 am

Clive, does this help in illustrating your explanation?

Image
Attachments
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