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Please let us know what features you think could improve the forum. Remember the work is done for free and the love of Netsuke so be gentle with ideas.
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DSW90049
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Postby DSW90049 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:50 pm

Reading with interest everybody's ideas.

How about an experiment?

We start a thread: "EBay, and Other Seller's, Requests for Information," and I post some language that you all help me write, as first post, explaining what this thread is for, why we have it - based on thoughts shared here - and then, when we get these kinds of inquiries without the poster making full disclosure, we simply move that post here? We can also say that we expect candor from the poster as to why they are asking us questions here, if that makes folks feel better (see my personal comment below)

If that works, and serves to lessen the collective anger about being 'used,' without full disclosure, then we could see about something more elaborate.

Personally, I don't take these events as hard as some, but I do respect those of you who are outraged! I just don't feel as outraged. To me, we are here to educate - ourselves, each other, and people who come here. If some wish to use us for this, and then sell on EBay or wherever, what harm is it doing anybody unless they mis-quote us, or use us in some improper manner or commit some other foul deed?

But, first, let's try the experiment - what should the first post say by way of explanation?
"There is no shortcut to netsuke collecting; it takes time, study and patience. The market is flooded with utterly worthless rubbish. . . . "
Netsukes: Their Makers, Use and Meaning, H. Seymour Trower(1898)~~~~David

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Vlad
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Postby Vlad » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:07 pm

Martyn, but doesn't the first point cover the second as a given?Image

David, this may be fine, but will not address the whole issue as it may not be usable for the honest, or pretending to be honest collectors. I would rather prefer something applicable to all NLOs across instead...

I fully agree on your point of education being made available regardless of the intentions of the requestors, just the volume of such may differ based on individual responders' preferences. As you may remember, I was not frustrated with the requestor of the deleted thread at all, I just did not waist much of my time on it from the get go...Image
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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AFNetsuke
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Postby AFNetsuke » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:15 pm

I personally do not support a section on the Forum (paid for by INS members' dues) for non-member e-Bay (internet) sellers to come get free advice and evaluations.We already say we don't give evaluations. I'm starting to think I'm just as happy having the occasional poster who milks us get away with it up to the point of exposing them for what they are and then lock down that thread so any info we learn by reading the comments would not be lost. I've never really felt outraged over one of these. I also don't like the idea that any one or two people could condemn a piece as an NLO if it isn't or praise a piece if it is a fake and lock out further discussion by sequestration. Sometimes these threads develop into a learning experience. We pay a price for that. But if an experiment is felt to lead us to the right answer I have no objection to a trial (pun intended).
Alan

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DSW90049
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Postby DSW90049 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:15 pm

Vlad, flesh out your proposal by describing it further, pls, so others understand and can comment fully.

The problem of tying it to "NLO's," is that it is a tautology of sorts.
Most who come and show us their pieces and who profess no knowledge, could not tell an NLO from a collectible piece.

If we are trying to separate curious potential new collectors, from vendors who pretend to be, to get our opinions, then we should focus on what the person plans to do with the information which they are requesting from us - i.e., Is this for sales or for your interest as a potential collector. If for sales, please know . . . . . ; if you are interested as a potential collector, then what we usually tell newbies.

Thoughts??Image

P.S. As long as we are all using our brains to work on this, it just occurred to me that, a nominal charge for opinions for sellers would be a great way to help fund INS - it's staring us in the face, no? We would have to have all the appropriate caveats, and I don't know if this creaky old Forum software can process payments - but, don't we have PayPal tied in for members at this point? Gotta check on status of that . . . .
"There is no shortcut to netsuke collecting; it takes time, study and patience. The market is flooded with utterly worthless rubbish. . . . "
Netsukes: Their Makers, Use and Meaning, H. Seymour Trower(1898)~~~~David

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AFNetsuke
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Postby AFNetsuke » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:24 pm

David, if you're interested in using PayPal to charge for evaluations the requesting party could put the money under our home page "Donations" area with a notation that it is for their Forum Evaluation...but will people just not bother to banter back and forth to the same degree if they now know they are not helping a potential new collector? And don't forget to tell them these are only "opinions", no official INS position, not an appraisal....maybe even potentially worthless gibberish...What's the charge? What's our time worth? More for signatures? More for discovering a gem of great value? Last appraisal I had years ago was $150/hr. How much would you risk paying knowing you might do a little digging here to find out whether you have an NLO? Being able to have the INS accountant verify payment has been made before starting the answers is likely impossible. So, set up our own Paypal account?
Alan

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Vlad
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Postby Vlad » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:24 pm

Let's assume this is a post with an NLO...
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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Vlad
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Postby Vlad » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:25 pm

Vlad wrote:Let's assume this is a post with an NLO...


Here is our response! (without the onimh addition, of course:))

http://netsuke.websitetoolbox.com/post/this-is-an-nlo-response-6637054
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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souldeep
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Postby souldeep » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:09 pm

David - PayPal can cope and be tied in to this... Also Luigi had some very strong views on pay for signature conversion service. Worth seeing his points again?

It could be done like this OR - Members section - advantage to being a member - signatures translated, expert opinions on your piece blah blah. Seems the easier option of the two to me.

Alan - perhaps I read into it wrongly but I was referring to you being offended for the reasons I've been sharing on this thread on your post #21 here http://netsuke.websitetoolbox.com/post/please-help-new-to-the-forum-6522737?highlight=female+shishi&trail=30

Alan - David. There seems to be a difference of opinion here. I understood in the INS there is no ban on someone visiting and asking for advice with an aim to sell. However when I've used the term "evaluation" I meant it in the context of saying if it's a good thing or not. Nothing to do with financial evaluation for someone.

I'm not trying to stir up here - just suggest a solution for something that hopefully does the exact opposite and soothes the members passions. Either it's fine to post for a sale - in which repsect it would make sense to find a way to make this process more transparent or it's not fine to post for quick sale info in which case my suggestion should be rightfully ignored. But one thing is clear in my mind - newbies wishing to make a quick flip will continue to come and ask for advice... I was just wanting to suggest a way in which we could manage it to make everyone a bit happier and the whole thing a bit more clear for everyone involved from whatever angle they are approaching this.
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.

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souldeep
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Postby souldeep » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:09 pm

Vlad wrote:
Vlad wrote:Let's assume this is a post with an NLO...


Here is our response! (without the onimh addition, of course:))

http://netsuke.websitetoolbox.com/post/this-is-an-nlo-response-6637054


LOL - is Onimh on your books?
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.

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NetsukeManiac
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Postby NetsukeManiac » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:52 pm

Alan writes:

"I'm starting to think I'm just as happy having the occasional poster who milks us get away with it up to the point of exposing them for what they are and then lock down that thread so any info we learn by reading the comments would not be lost. I've never really felt outraged over one of these."

I wholeheartedly agree with Alan. It's not a matter of being outraged, it's the outrageous behavior of some who claim a genuine interest in netsuke, ask questions about their 'acquisitions', receive bad news only to list them on eBay as genuine Japanese antiques including crazy unprovable guarantees of origin and authenticity thereby completely dismissing the informed assessment they originally sought on this forum.

Milkers like this who get busted should pay the price of having their threads getting locked and placed into a special section (I propose calling it the 'Thread of Shame') for future milkers to read and heed before asking questions about their new 'acquisitions'. Ebay sellers looking for some quick info. in order to market their wares will quickly learn that we have plenty of eyes on eBay.

SC


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