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On the recognition of the use of power tools.. part 1

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Clive
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Postby Clive » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:21 am


""AFNetsuke"":156fnq9f wrote:
Jan 26, 2010 at 09:36 AM
Clive, I would encourage you to write an article on the recognition of use of power tools. I suspect it would be published in the INSJ but if not of broad enough appeal it could at least be posted here for interested parties.
[/quote:156fnq9f]

OK.. lets see how this goes...
[url=http://www.followingtheironbrush.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1611&p=15207#p15207:156fnq9f]http://www.followingtheironbrush.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1611&p=15207#p15207[/url:156fnq9f]
(Ps.. I'm posting it there because that forum has a better picture faculty)



warburg
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Postby warburg » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:51 pm

"Clive":22ihflfm wrote:
""AFNetsuke"":22ihflfm wrote:
Jan 26, 2010 at 09:36 AM
Clive, I would encourage you to write an article on the recognition of use of power tools. I suspect it would be published in the INSJ but if not of broad enough appeal it could at least be posted here for interested parties.
[/quote:22ihflfm]

OK.. lets see how this goes...
[url=http://www.followingtheironbrush.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1611&p=15207#p15207:22ihflfm]http://www.followingtheironbrush.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1611&p=15207#p15207[/url:22ihflfm]
(Ps.. I'm posting it there because that forum has a better picture faculty)


[/quote:22ihflfm]

Could you humor those of us who know nothing about carving; perhaps I'm the only one. What is it we should be seeing in the Goho frog on mushroom piece?

fkc
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Postby fkc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:17 pm

There are two photos, one with plugged cracks and one with Goho-type carved cracks. Clive's contending that it may be the same piece and that the Goho-type cracks were carved before 1986, possibly with a rotary drill. On that assumption, the photo with the plugs was, presumably, taken at an even earlier date. Given that we're dealing with photos here, taken at different times, there would still seem to be enough similarities for the issue to be worth pursuing.

The rest of the discussion on technicalities (still on-going) by carvers is on the FTIB site that Clive posted in his previous post
Freda http://fiedesigns.blogspot.com/

warburg
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Postby warburg » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:05 pm

"fk":zxo7eind wrote:There are two photos, one with plugged cracks and one with Goho-type carved cracks. Clive's contending that it may be the same piece and that the Goho-type cracks were carved before 1986, possibly with a rotary drill. On that assumption, the photo with the plugs was, presumably, taken at an earlier date. Given that we're dealing with photos here, taken at different times, there would still seem to be enough similarities for the issue to be worth pursuing.

The rest of the discussion on technicalities (still on-going) by carvers is on the FTIB site that Clive posted in his previous post
[/quote:zxo7eind]

I understand. Thanks very much. Where did the pre-1986 photo come from? Also, what about the differences in color betwen the two states of the netsuke? Was the piece restained or is what we are seeing simply a photograhic phenomenon? Also, why would round holes indicate later restoration. The early carvers had drills that produced round holes also, didn't they? What about the drilled himotoshi on antique pieces, or the round small holes in leaves, symbolizing decay? I'm not certain of what's being discussed here. The poster (Phil White) refers to "round edges on the cracks," while Clive refers to "round holes."

I certainly do think this should be developed as an article for [i:zxo7eind]INSJ[/i:zxo7eind]. It's an important example about the recreation of a masterpiece, and there should be more discussion of restoration in the journal.

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AFNetsuke
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Postby AFNetsuke » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:00 pm


Thanks, Clive, I'll visit the FTIB site tonight!
Alan

fkc
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Postby fkc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:07 pm

It seems that the pre-1986 photo came from Bernard Hurtig, warburg, though that has yet to be fully established. The difference in colour has been noted. In fact, the different photos of the 'altered' piece seems to show different colourings, too. This might be due to lighting issues; again, it might not. However, both are substantially different and much lighter in colour than the Hurtig photo indicates.

On the issue of holes and power drills, Clive would need to answer that; I've no experience of using them.

It would certainly make for a very lively article and discussion in the INSJ! A lot of research would have to be undertaken first, though, and I would guess we're talking the involvement of reasonably big money + signature + condition here. :roll:
Freda http://fiedesigns.blogspot.com/

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Clive
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Postby Clive » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:01 am

Hello Warburg, please forgive me for not going into the precise nature of the holes in this first part of the series.. after my initial post I received a number of replies that made it clear that I would have to spend some time explaining the precise difference in the holes produced by a traditional hand drill and the removal of material with a rotary power tool.

The most basic difference is that a traditional hand drill is essentially designed to produce a vertical hole.. whereas the high speed rotary tool can cut laterally as well/ and at the same time. A carver wanting to create the effect seen in this piece could certainly create a series of vertical holes but it would be extremely unlikely that such a carver using traditional tools could then create the perfectly smooth and rounded curves that would link each vertical hole.. as seen in the close-up pictures.
I think the close up of the origanal Goho crack/decay seen on the "Snail on the Mushroom" piece gives one a good idea of the character that a traditional tooling approach would produce.




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AFNetsuke
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Postby AFNetsuke » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:58 am


I just visited the Following the Iron Brush site and the discussion of the Goho piece being modified was intriguing. Some questioned why anyone would destroy such as work of art by modifying and hiding its defects. I think it is clear that being able to present the piece as undamaged by cracks would enhance its value (as long as one didn't recognize the fact that it was modified). But perhaps some collectors prefer reworked pieces to damaged goods and would pay more even knowing the modification had been performed? I don't know. What do you think?
Alan

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Clive
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Postby Clive » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:19 am


I think that netsuke are part of a cultural and historical record and that substantially modifying pieces destroys the integrity of that record. The more collectors develop the skills needed to recognise such modifications the less likely it is to continue. I also think the INS should consider having some sort of code of conduct to guide those who perhaps might not have considered the long term implications of such actions.

warburg
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Postby warburg » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:25 am

"Clive":heyelssw wrote:
I think that netsuke are part of a cultural and historical record and that substantially modifying pieces destroys the integrity of that record. The more collectors develop the skills needed to recognise such modifications the less likely it is to continue. I also think the INS should consider having some sort of code of conduct to guide those who perhaps might not have considered the long term implications of such actions.
[/quote:heyelssw]

Clive: Thank you very much for the explanation. This subject is IMMENSELY interesting and important, and I hope you will develop it into an article for [i:heyelssw]INSJ[/i:heyelssw]. It is much needed.

The INS is a very loose organization of dealers and collectors. Its main functions are to publish a journal and sponsor a biannual convention. It does not have an ethics board or any other authority to recommend a "code of conduct." On the other hand, I don't believe that netsuke collectors differ from other collectors of art and antiques in that they usually prefer to avoid restorations unless they are essential, and they prefer the minimal amount of alteration in these instances. I doubt that transformational restorations, such as the one you illustrate in the Goho piece, are common.


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