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Bishamon

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Curt
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:26 pm

Bishamon

Postby Curt » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:53 pm

So here the piece in question, the material seems to have some age to it, but in my (still untrained) eye, not authentic. I believe this is carved from either a sperm or killer whale's tooth, as the ivory has a concentric ring pattern. The subject it Bishamon, on of the 7 lucky gods and one of the four heavenly kings - the guardian on the north. He holds a pagoda (Stupa - the Divine Treasure House of Buddha) As always I could be wrong :shock: .

I do have a question about the himatoshi. I know Judy gave a possible warning sign when there is extra decoration around the holes. But what about the size of the holes? Some of my old netsuke have different diameters, while others are the same. Some have larger holes and others have small openings that I think would be difficult to use. Are there rules when looking at himatoshi?
Purchase date June 2000: Auction entry reads: "Old, very well-detailed and carved, marine ivory (whales tooth) netsuke of a Bishomon holding a model of a pagoda in his hand, circa 1900.

So, I think this is a above average tourist piece, I also notice the same signature on my NLO post 'A Scholar for the non-scholar' . Supposed to be "Gyokubun"? So maybe I'm getting a pattern here?
Attachments
N3F.jpg
N3R.jpg
N3B.jpg

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HLH
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:18 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Bishamon

Postby HLH » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:25 am

Curt

I belive that you are abolutely right.
A reflektion, have you seen many signatures under the foot on original pieces? I think most signatures are close to the himotoshi or more visible not ”hidden”. All famous signatures seems to be red alert and demands expert consultation.
Henrik

Be careful out there
鬼は外、福は内

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chonchon
Posts: 6926
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 9:16 am
Location: Japan

Re: Bishamon

Postby chonchon » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:16 pm

Yes, I agree that you are in the right ballpark, but a relatively unusual subject for a Netsuke. I have a friend who has written a book about the northern clans, especially Uesugi Kenshin, and Yonezawa. He lives in Sweden and has some lovely antiques, including a couple of little portable shrines with Bishamonten standing inside.

Re: 'Himotoshi'.
Himo 紐 means string. It ends with an 'O'. Remember the 'O' for the string?
To-shi, 通しis from the verb 通す To-su, to push through. You can add 'ana' 穴 for hole(s) if you like. Viz., Himotoshi-ana, or Himotoshi-no-ana.
Thus, a string-push-through or pass-through (hole), or set of holes.

NB. 'Hima', 暇 which Netsuke members sometimes use mistakenly, means 'bored', or 'time on your hands', 'nothing to do'. :P
Piers

Size is something.

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AFNetsuke
Posts: 6278
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:14 am
Location: Central California coast, USA

Re: Bishamon

Postby AFNetsuke » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:26 pm

chonchon wrote:NB. 'Hima', 暇 which Netsuke members sometimes use mistakenly, means 'bored', or 'time on your hands', 'nothing to do'. :P

Hopefully not a Freudian slip by our visitors, Piers. :lol:
Alan

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jbjtennyo
Posts: 3729
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:38 pm
Location: USA

Re: Bishamon

Postby jbjtennyo » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:49 pm

Hi Curt, Sorry I have not been online for a couple of days.
Regarding the himotoshi details, it is just one of many things you look at when judging the authenticity of a netsuke. There are enough 19C pieces with equal sized himotoshi and enough 20C netsuke with one large hole and one small to make this feature NOT a totally deciding factor. However, when you see a ring around the himotoshi, I was told early on it is a big question mark as to its origin and time frame. That said, there are also authentic netsuke out there that have himotoshi that are highly decorated and part of the composition of the netsuke. So you see, there is more to this than meets the eye. The answer really is in handling a lot of the real thing, and getting a sense for the gross difference in quality there is out there. I believe Alan pointed out that just because something has a lot of detail doesn't necessarily mean quality, and visa versa by the way-- There is enough discrepancy in these rules of thumb that you really just need to acquire a "feel for real". No easy quick fixes.
Judy

Curt
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:26 pm

Re: Bishamon

Postby Curt » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:28 am

chonchon wrote:Re: 'Himotoshi'.
Himo 紐 means string. It ends with an 'O'. Remember the 'O' for the string?
To-shi, 通しis from the verb 通す To-su, to push through. You can add 'ana' 穴 for hole(s) if you like. Viz., Himotoshi-ana, or Himotoshi-no-ana.
Thus, a string-push-through or pass-through (hole), or set of holes.

NB. 'Hima', 暇 which Netsuke members sometimes use mistakenly, means 'bored', or 'time on your hands', 'nothing to do'. :P

Thanks for this Piers - so you see if I can't spell the parts correctly, it's hard to know what is what. It is nice to see the etymology and the difference between Hemo and Hima - I wish I had more time on my hands so I would have more time to study - but it is the retail season and that's where the time is spent.

Curt
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:26 pm

Re: Bishamon

Postby Curt » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:32 am

jbjtennyo wrote:Hi Curt, Sorry I have not been online for a couple of days.
Regarding the himotoshi details, it is just one of many things you look at when judging the authenticity of a netsuke. There is enough discrepancy in these rules of thumb that you really just need to acquire a "feel for real". No easy quick fixes.


Thank you Judy - I'm pretty busy with the holiday retail season, so I haven't been around much as well. I'm posting one today which is at the other end of the spectrum. It will be nice when I can take time and see and handle some authentic pieces. I think what throws me is most of mine are older and well carved, with a sprinkling of real ones thrown in. It will take time. I do hope the one I post tonight is an authentic one, perhaps a folk piece, but one I really enjoy looking at - whatever it is. :)


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