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Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Not sure what you have? Here you can post your piece and discover its period, context and authenticity.
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Oishii
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Location: Belgium

Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby Oishii » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:55 pm

Vad, I agree that some of these pieces may not fit the definition 'fake' (strictly), "when they are listed as they are".
But this is mostly not the case : many times they are described as "19th century" or "signed ... ..."
Here are some signatures that this carver has used. They are usually much bigger than the original mei.
One time he even faked the Kokusai seal :
Screen Shot 2016-12-31 at 20.19.49.png

Screen Shot 2016-12-31 at 19.50.58.png
Screen Shot 2016-12-31 at 20.00.42.png
Jan

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Vlad
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Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby Vlad » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:44 pm

In that case some have indeed been fakes, Jan, but it looks like he has walked away from that practice, as none of the later are signed. The fact that somebody calls something not what it is doesn't necessarily makes it a fake in my eyes. Fraud by the seller clearly takes place, of course.
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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Tsunuki
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Location: Southern California

Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby Tsunuki » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:05 pm

Vlad wrote:If you bought it on eBay and from Switzerland, the odds are in favor of contemporary, I would say. Still a charming carving, you just have to figure out what that tengu is doing in that pine tree with that scroll...

No, I purchased a couple "Swiss" carvings starting out (from his short lived US identity, sevabo2000), and I've learned my lesson since then. They're often nice carvings, but they usually go for much more than I'd want to pay knowing that they're not what they seem (searching his recent sold listings, only one went for less than $200, most well above that; I often wonder if he's bidding them up with his multiple accounts). Here's another topic where I made another lengthy post on the subject:
http://forums.netsuke.org/viewtopic.php?f=494797&t=8077217
Anyways, except for being made of antler, possibly contemporary, and of a popular subject, my Tengu lacks most features of those "Swiss" netsuke:
Large, tapered, often uneven himotoshi
Fake Kokusai signature or large, illegible signature
Inlays
Lumpy, rounded shapes, smoothed details
Photo of a hand holding it

That said, I did get it from another ebay seller, 2014antiques737, but from off-ebay (email correspondence), and at a very reasonable price.

AFNetsuke wrote:As Vlad said, the combination of elements should raise some questions. Did the maker just combine some common Japanese elements into a cute "Frankenstein" production?

I don't see what about the subject is unusual. Tengu live in the mountains and are bird-like, so they'd be landing on pine trees all the time, I think.
Image
And as masters of the martial arts and followers of Shugendō, I think they'd have some scrolls available for teaching. This print by Kunitsuna Utagawa has some sitting on the table on the far right (also, note the pine trees):
Image

Neil suggested in the Netsuke Facebook group that it may have started life as a cane handle, before being converted to a netsuke. Also, I brought it to the last INS LA meeting and no one took issue with it (as far as I could tell). My concerns about the piece are mostly that the carving seems "too nice" for the price, and it's lacking much patina or wear. Either way, I'm very happy with it. Here are my remaining (old) photos of it:
2IMG_1646.JPG
4IMG_1651.JPG
5_20161001_115440.jpg
6IMG_1654.JPG
Ryan Snooks

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Vlad
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Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby Vlad » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:32 pm

In that case it's all good, and you will have nothing to worry about, Ryan. How big is it, by the way? It should be rather large to serve as a cane handle first, as suggested, though the overall shape and the "natural himotoshi" at the bottom are all supportive of that idea and make me as a handle collector even more excited about it! Good carving of a very hard material. I have only two antler cane handles and neither of them is even nearly as much hollowed and pierced. :love:
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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Tsunuki
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Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby Tsunuki » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:43 pm

Vlad wrote:In that case it's all good, and you will have nothing to worry about, Ryan. How big is it, by the way? It should be rather large to serve as a cane handle first, as suggested, though the overall shape and the "natural himotoshi" at the bottom are all supportive of that idea and make me as a handle collector even more excited about it! Good carving of a very hard material. I have only two antler cane handles and neither of them is even nearly as much hollowed and pierced. :love:

Personally, I think it's too small to be a cane handle, even if it had been trimmed down. It measures only 1.8" tall, 1.08" wide, and 0.94" deep.
Ryan Snooks

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Vlad
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Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby Vlad » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:47 pm

Agree! As we have exhausted all the possibilities, all is left is to admit that this is a nice netsuke of an unknown age, but most porbably of a Japanese origin.
As such, it should be returned back to the original thread, I would think.
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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Oishii
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Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby Oishii » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:28 pm

Vlad wrote:Agree! As we have exhausted all the possibilities, all is left is to admit that this is a nice netsuke of an unknown age, but most porbably of a Japanese origin.
As such, it should be returned back to the original thread, I would think.

Good point, Vlad !
Ryan's post was copied from the "Favourite Finds" as it lead to a discussion of the Ebay modern carvings.
The original post is still to be found there ;-)
Jan

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chonchon
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Re: Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby chonchon » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:13 am

There is a workshop in Japan producing Iwami Netsuke. Perhaps they see themselves as continuing a dying, or reviving a dead, local tradition? Most are signed with names like Tomiharu, though.
Piers

Size is something.

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carlomagno
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Location: Chile

Re: Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby carlomagno » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:18 am

Any pictures Piers? Would love to see the revival
Nec spe nec metu

alain.D
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:18 am

Re: Stag antler piece of unknown age : modern Ebay fake ?

Postby alain.D » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:57 am

I don't see why this tegu would be a fake on photo it looks alright and without having in hand I would say it is alright . I have seen many netsuke whose subject I could not find and which were old that you can't say anything based on that point.


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