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Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Discussion of different types of materials used for netsuke.
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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:23 pm

szwang wrote:Vlad: Thanks for explaining. I get your point that this doesn't look like your fine antique ivory, but I'm still very sure this is genuine elephant ivory. I understand why you say it's not even ivory, the pattern doesn't look like the usual ones. But I've seen it many times, probably more often with larger scales carvings, tonkotsu or alike.

Sorry I can't explain my opinion clearer, hope someone with more expertise can help me explain this.

sz

Well, I guess we will have to leave it unresolved then for the moment, as I frankly don't know anybody with more expertise in this area. Maybe Clive, whose opinion is more valued here (and for a good reason), would like to chime in, but I am afraid he might be even more sick and tired of repeating the same basic lessons again and again here every other year. :cry:
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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chonchon
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby chonchon » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:15 am

Frank seems genuinely interested in what you are saying, Vlad, and so am I. Jill's warning was spot on. Your illustrative photographs have recently been very good in both quality and quantity.

In the case of the Shishi, I have to agree that someone has gone to great lengths to replicate Schreger ivory-looking patterns all over, avoiding parallel-line celluloid appearance, but these shsihi lines look forced, too obvious, too clumsy and with no depth or 3D effect to them, compared to your mokugyo for example. Are they painted on with a stain, I wonder?
Piers

Size is something.

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:06 am

I really wanted someone to try to describe what he sees, or if thinking this is real ivory, to try to describe what they think I may see that makes me think it's not. This is the only way to learn, I believe.
But I will PM you, and any other INS members, who may be interested, with my observations.
Just a hint - it is not only about the basic appearence, parallel lines, and/or crosshatchings. One needs to think and understand how they are formed. These are supposed to be continuously growing parts of a live being, after all.
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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chonchon
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby chonchon » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:26 am

Please do, Vlad. (So you think my observation is not good then?)
Piers

Size is something.

frankgreddick
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby frankgreddick » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:59 am

If you wanna hear my input? Genuine ivory depending of how and where it is cut, shows the Schrediger lines. As you know sometimes they are ony seen on the bottom of the piece, and sometimes they are much more apparent like in those you posted earlier. Celluloid has rigid repeating patterns as opposed to ivory which has cross sectioned lines. The shishi's lines look unnaturally forced and stand out like a sore thumb.

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AFNetsuke
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby AFNetsuke » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:50 am

Vlad, sometimes your answers or comments can be a bit hard for some to follow. Perhaps just stating what you see/mean after allowing people to give their reasons in answer to your questions would open their eyes rather than keep them guessing or getting frustrated. Telling them that someone who really wants to learn would get it may not be the best teaching technique.
Alan

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:19 am

Well Alan, then I guess we will just have to wait for "someone with more expertise" to help, as suggested... :)
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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RoyT
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby RoyT » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:56 am

Vlad,
I have been interested in netsuke for a year now, but still feel like a total newbie - so I'm on thin ice here :) If we look at the schreger lines at the Shishis rear end the angle between the lines is less than 90 degrees – which suggest mammoth ivory. At the top of the head the angel is much more opened, maybe an attempt to have them on 115 degrees which would suggest elephant ivory…. … .. . And all this in one piece :D
Regards Roy

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:19 am

Roy, all I can say is that you have already demonstrated way more expertise, than others so far. And I will tell you more...
but in a PM, as you are an INS member and were not yet here when I spent hours and days going through ivory explanations on this very Forum a few years back. :geek:
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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chonchon
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby chonchon » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:17 am

Vlad, thank you for the arrowed areas and linked video.

Now I can see where you are coming from, and I can also see why my feeling regarding the faux-ivory Shishi was correct, even if the reason I gave for it was not.
Piers

Size is something.


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