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Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Discussion of different types of materials used for netsuke.
MDS5866
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Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby MDS5866 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:01 pm

Evening to all.

I am writing this evening in reference to how to tell one from another (ie: Wood from Celluloid, Ivory, or Other Bone). I ask as in relation to the attached scan(#2). The owner states that it is celluloid but when I queried the Forum I found a post by the following member.

OldKappa wrote:Yes but if you see these lines mainly in kagamibuta, it is a wooden core with a celluloid covering imitating ivory. They are genuine Meiji kagamibuta mass produced netsuke.
Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:22 pm In his post he further provides an example(#1). I dont see the lines in my example.

Thoughts and thanks in advance

Mark
Attachments
951950_Dragon_Kagamibuta_&_Seven_Strand_Kinchaku_Chain_8.jpg
il_fullxfull.549405587_d6fb.jpg

MDS5866
Posts: 31
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby MDS5866 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:24 pm

Here is a picture of the obverse. From this view there appears to be some details of lines. So would this be wood covered in celluloid?

Kind regards

Mark
Attachments
Dragon.jpg

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:05 pm

It is impossible to say if there is wood inside from the picture. The bowls with wood will be lighter than the ones of solid celluloid. Either way, though, those are mass-produced since the Meiji and to these days. You may even find some with ivory bowls occasionally. The metal mirror is practically the same, thin and pressed from behind...

Yours is definitely celluloid from the outside nevertheless. Here is one of ivory, but still a mass-produced piece of neither artistic, nor craftsmanship value.
Attachments
saifu, walet set 4.jpg
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

MDS5866
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby MDS5866 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:13 pm

Vlad,

Thanks for the feedback and confirming what I suspected.

Best regards

Mark

frankgreddick
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby frankgreddick » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:20 am

The straight repeating lines are indicative of celluloid, ivory would have crossed section patterns.

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:45 am

This again is not exactly correct, Frank. We have addressed it several times before and it is captured well in the members sections now. Briefly speaking, it all de[ends on the direction of the cut, where Schreger lines may form either crosshatchings, parallel lines, or even concentric circles as in the enclosed examples.
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Enemal - Schereger lines.jpg
horse - concentric_circles.jpg
horse - cross-hatchings.jpg
horse - parallel_lines.jpg
lines_494.jpg
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:48 am

But now some forgers try to imitate even that...
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Fake ivory 10.jpg
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:52 am

So one needs to always look from all angles and imagine how the tusk would actually go and what he would see at each side as a result...
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"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)

frankgreddick
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby frankgreddick » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:50 am

Correction, not all the time, but a good majority of the time tight straight lines are indicative of celluloid.

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Vlad
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Re: Kagamibuta:Celluloid, Wood, Ivory or Other?

Postby Vlad » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:02 am

frankgreddick wrote:Correction, not all the time, but a good majority of the time tight straight lines are indicative of celluloid.

Still wrong, but I think those interested in learning should've gotten it... ;)
"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" - "One sees only what one knows". Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832)


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