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Reading signatures

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Oishii
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby Oishii » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:00 am

HLH wrote:Now some exercise.
The one on the upper left looks very much as in authenticity ’Man with a stick and a bird’ Its a bit hard to see as you don’t show the base on the photo but the carving details seems alike.

Okay let's study them a bit more in detail ... we are certain you will find the differences striking.
Here are the two together :
* the one on the upper left.
* the one from authenticity "man with a stick and a bird".

This way they might be easier to compare.
Would you be able to see any differences as to the patina of the wood and the wear ?
Which of the two would be the oldest in your opinion ?
Which of the two is/are the modern replica(s) ?
Which one would be more suitable standing in a cabinet as a trinket and which one would be more likely to hang/sit on the obi of a kimono ?
Which one do you like most ? Do you recognise features of a "Sennin" in one of the two ?
Screen Shot 2017-12-06 at 10.50.02.png
Jan

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HLH
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby HLH » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:06 pm

Hi Jan,
This is what first pop up when I start to analyze.
Interesting how you look at an item when you only see a part of it. I wouldn’t picked this one if I’ve got the second sharper picture. But I’ll try to compare and prove that the ”bird man” is a NLO.
The patina is very different - the glossy varnish lookalike compared to smooth polish on the old one. But hard to see as I belive that also can be faked. This is the tricky part. The bird man is standing on a small plattorm so its not even a netsuke. The carving shows some details but not very good ones. It looks a bit ’angular’ and impersonal.
But the age of the sen-nin 50-100-200 years old? A guess is 19th C.
I belive it could be Chokaro as he has something looking like a horse leg on his back. But I need to see more photos. What’s the criteria for a sen-nin? Also the himotoshi placement is important so it will hang properly on the dress.
Henrik

Be careful out there
鬼は外、福は内

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HLH
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby HLH » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:40 pm

I’ve a feeling that the monkey also is NLO with all fingers of the same length. I belive that Piers argumented this on another netsuke diskussed earlier.
Henrik

Be careful out there
鬼は外、福は内

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chonchon
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby chonchon » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:08 am

Yes, I agree with you on the monkey. It is also out of balance, badly proportioned, and the face looks crude too. No soul! 8-)
Last edited by chonchon on Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Piers

Size is something.

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HLH
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby HLH » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:19 pm

Piers,
Thanks, your advice to look at fingers and toes came in handy with this monkey as well of expression of the face. This is something you can use in general for all NLOs? Patina and natural polishing is also giving an indication of age, but I think its very difficult. What can I look for? Also how can you best see if its hand versus machine carved. I’ve seen it on footpads with its angular design. But how can you dicover it on a figure?
Henrik

Be careful out there
鬼は外、福は内

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HLH
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby HLH » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:39 pm

Jan,
I think the two figures are genuine. I’ve guessed as they look a bit simular on the small photos. But the two lying creatures is a bit uncertain. Do you have some more photos that can make it easier to identify would be appreciated.
Henrik

Be careful out there
鬼は外、福は内

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Oishii
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby Oishii » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:53 pm

HLH wrote: I think the two figures are genuine. I’ve guessed as they look a bit simular on the small photos. But the two lying creatures is a bit uncertain. Do you have some more photos that can make it easier to identify would be appreciated.


Hi Henrik,
yes, your previous comments proved that you are getting to know the subjects and that your reading books is working ...

here are the six pieces that we were studying, all described as 18/19th century by the same seller.
Bigger pictures and adding views of the back/himotoshi will certainly make it easier to discern the older examples from the modern replicas/NLO's. We are not studying this as collectible, desirable examples, but just for the exercise's sake ;-)

Piece A
Sennin.jpg

Piece B
monkey.jpg

Piece C
netsuke3.jpg

Piece D
netsuke5.jpg

Piece E
deer.jpg

Piece F
Sarumiwashi.jpg
Last edited by Oishii on Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jan

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HLH
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby HLH » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:04 pm

Hi friends,

Thanks for supporting me in the art of distinguish between copy and original. I feel that some progress is achived but its a long way to go on a very narrow path. I really appreciate your comments and advice. And also I think, I can speak for many others who visit this forum.
Let the show go on. I’m ready for new missions.
Henrik

Be careful out there
鬼は外、福は内

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Oishii
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby Oishii » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:04 pm

HLH wrote:Hi friends,

Thanks for supporting me in the art of distinguish between copy and original. I feel that some progress is achived but its a long way to go on a very narrow path. I really appreciate your comments and advice. And also I think, I can speak for many others who visit this forum.
Let the show go on. I’m ready for new missions.


Hi Henrik !
we won't let you off the hook so easily ;-)
Unknown.jpg

(please copy the quiz-part of the post and fill out !)

1. All the six pieces in the post were described as 18/19th century pieces.
Which (A,B,C,D,E or F) do you think are indeed 18th or 19th century ?


.......................................

2. Rank the pieces : from the oldest in your opinion to the ones that you think are the youngest (Oldest first)

......... ......... .......... ......... ........ .........


3. Any idea on which ones could possibly be made in other countries than Japan ?

..................................


4. Which ones would you be happy to have in your collection ?

..................................


5. Which pieces have the nicest patina ? which ones do not have any patina ?

..................................


6. Which piece has the most wear, with some parts actually worn off ?

..................


7. Do you see any damage or missing parts ? Where ?

..............................................................


8. Piece F is a typical model of :

a) monkey seller
b) drunken man with a monkey on his back
d) a monkey trainer
e) Daikokuten, the lucky god, with a monkey
f) a karako that was playing with a monkey, but has now fallen asleep


9. Let's take a look at the signature in piece D : which statement is true for you ?

a) I would like to research this signature ; this is from a 19th C master.
b) the signature may be added later to this piece
c) the signature does not matter, it is insignificant, as the piece is an nlo.
d) it is a Chinese signature instead of a Japanese one.

10. Piece A is :

a) a Nio (temple guardian)
b) a Sennin
c) a blind beggar
d) a seller walking on a market
e) a daily life figure in 19th century Edo.
Last edited by Oishii on Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Jan

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souldeep
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Re: Reading signatures

Postby souldeep » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:15 pm

Wow.. Quiz time!! Nice one Jan!

Henrik.. You are getting class A INS member treatment right there :D
Piglet: "Pooh?" Pooh: "Yes, Piglet?" Piglet: "I've been thinking..." Pooh: "That's a very good habit to get into to, Piglet." - A.A. Milne.


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